Free Speech

[Cman 469]

Just now, Travesty said:

 

Fuck this shit. I'm out. This is not a safe space for me to discuss my beliefs and views! I FEEL THREATENED.

[JFK 546]

3 hours ago, Swed said:

To fight these people, do not meet them with violence, but vigorous debate. Debate them in the streets, use facts and logic, not emotions, to show others the error of their ways. Allow them to fall by their own faulty arguments. If you simply silence someone, whether by protest or violence, all you do is validate them. You give them a place to cry to the public and say, they must think I'm right if they won't let me speak. 

 

The problem is that when you give White Nationalists a platform without opposition, you legitimize their arguments and allow them to gain traction. It's pathetically easy to say that they need to be given a platform without visible protest when you're not part of a group who are being targeted by white supremacists and anti-LGBT figures in general. You're never going to find reason with white supremacists and other bigots when to begin, as they did not reason themselves into these positions to begin with. They'll denounce anything that suggests white nationalism and it's ilk is repulsive as fake news, or part of some deep state conspiracy, retreat to their echo chamber of preference for validation and go even further down the rabbit hole.

 

It's very similar to climate change denial. The U.S. and Australia are the only industrialized nation with a significant portion of the population relieving that it doesn't exist, and also the only industrialized nations with a large political party that presents climate change denial as merely an alternative view point and not horseshit.

 

More importantly, it also doesn't take into account that openly allowing white supremacists to spread propaganda without immediate opposition will convert social outcasts, people who feel they don't have a stake in society, and economically disenfranchised whites. Not might, will. They'll say a few things that resonate with their victim-hood, make them feel like they're part of something greater, lead them into a bubble filled with white nationalist propaganda, and ultimately reshape their worldview. It's the same reason why conspiracy theorists that are obsessed with seeing a conspiracy in everything taken for granted are able to find common ground with the alt-right. It goes to show how frighteningly effective white supremacist propaganda is at radicalizing vulnerable whites that are unsuccessful either socially or economically and need to find some way to assert their identity.

 

If "facts and logic" were so important to building support for ideas, then Trump would never have won the Republican Primary and he never would have won the General Election.

[Dakota 4722]

Just now, Travesty said:

 

Fuck this shit. I'm out. This is not a safe space for me to discuss my beliefs and views! I FEEL THREATENED.

That's it I'm leaving the clan, nobody else feels that police aren't human. Fuck you guys. 

1 hour ago, Travesty said:

 

When does it become discrimination?

When they can prove it that it's discrimination on a protected class. A coffee shop can have a rule that days they don't serve cops and it's okay. Same thing with red heads. Private businesses have rights in AMERICA 

[trav 6834]

Just now, Beerman said:

That's it I'm leaving the clan, nobody else feels that police aren't human. Fuck you guys. 

When they can prove it that it's discrimination on a protected class. A coffee shop can have a rule that days they don't serve cops and it's okay. Same thing with red heads. Private businesses have rights in AMERICA 

 

Coffee shops may be have rights but Cake shops don't

 

http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/

[fatb0y 1337]

45 minutes ago, JFK said:

 

The problem is that when you give White Nationalists a platform without opposition, you legitimize their arguments and allow them to gain traction. It's pathetically easy to say that they need to be given a platform without visible protest when you're not part of a group who are being targeted by white supremacists and anti-LGBT figures in general. You're never going to find reason with white supremacists and other bigots when to begin, as they did not reason themselves into these positions to begin with. They'll denounce anything that suggests white nationalism and it's ilk is repulsive as fake news, or part of some deep state conspiracy, retreat to their echo chamber of preference for validation and go even further down the rabbit hole.

 

It's very similar to climate change denial. The U.S. and Australia are the only industrialized nation with a significant portion of the population relieving that it doesn't exist, and also the only industrialized nations with a large political party that presents climate change denial as merely an alternative view point and not horseshit.

 

More importantly, it also doesn't take into account that openly allowing white supremacists to spread propaganda without immediate opposition will convert social outcasts, people who feel they don't have a stake in society, and economically disenfranchised whites. Not might, will. They'll say a few things that resonate with their victim-hood, make them feel like they're part of something greater, lead them into a bubble filled with white nationalist propaganda, and ultimately reshape their worldview. It's the same reason why conspiracy theorists that are obsessed with seeing a conspiracy in everything taken for granted are able to find common ground with the alt-right. It goes to show how frighteningly effective white supremacist propaganda is at radicalizing vulnerable whites that are unsuccessful either socially or economically and need to find some way to assert their identity.

 

If "facts and logic" were so important to building support for ideas, then Trump would never have won the Republican Primary and he never would have won the General Election.

 

So you feel that opposing the views of white-supremacists and anti-LGBT people with well reasoned rhetoric isn't enough. 

With rhetoric set aside, that leaves us with censorship and violence. 

Hello thought police. 

[trav 6834]

 

[water.exe 725]

2 hours ago, Cman said:

Water has gone afk too after proving his "logic" wrong 

I am sorry I have other responsibilities than sitting at the forums or ingames all day I will remember to tell my place of employment that the shipyard life is giving my ptsd and i need a safe space at home for several weeks out of the year and have that all paid for.

 

 

20 hours ago, Ordinarygamer96 said:

"Serious illegal immigration problem"  lol no it really doesn't harm us at all. Deporting them would skyrocket food prices and harm other industries as well. Most illegals don't even hop the border most are people who came legally and overstayed their visas. Trump gave the wall as a solution knowing it wasn't going to happen. He admits as much in the leaked phone call with Mexico's president. Also @water.exe theres no southern Mexican wall. That's a bs internet lie trumptards believed and spread 

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants. Additionally, Contreras found that at coffee farms in the Mexican state Chiapas, "40,000 Guatemalan field hands endure backbreaking jobs and squalid living conditions to earn roughly [US]$3.50 a day" and that some farmers "even deduct the cost of room and board from that amount."[3] In 2008, the Mexican National Institute of Migration estimated that 400,235 people crossed the border illegally every year and that around 150,000 of them intended to enter the United States.[4]

Contreras, Joseph (June 5, 2006), "Stepping Over the Line", Newsweek, 147 (23), p. 72

Gorney, Cynthia (February 2008), "Mexico's Other Border", National Geographic, 213 (2), pp. 60–79

 

@Ordinarygamer96 if you want to subscribe to the social justice you claim to support prove your morals and move to Mexico and work in the fields. If you refuse you are hypocrite and your argument is simply statements or excuses why you shouldn't be the included in it. Also more fun facts provided from our neighbor to the south yes I was proved wrong and I can accept that, I should've done the leg work instead of relying on one source before i posted about the wall on the southern border. But I would like to see the US adopt the same policy that we suggested to mexico where we have the state police, Immigration officals(ICE), US Army/marine/navy monitoring our borders just like mexico adopted Programa Frontera Sur.
The Globe and Mail: "Southern exposure: The costly border plan Mexico won’t discuss" by Stephanie Nolen January 5, 2017

[JFK 546]

42 minutes ago, fatb0y said:

 

So you feel that opposing the views of white-supremacists and anti-LGBT people with well reasoned rhetoric isn't enough. 

With rhetoric set aside, that leaves us with censorship and violence. 

Hello thought police. 

It turns out Germany has a system that works out pretty well for suppressing white supremacists and they haven't become a totalitarian dictatorship that controls your every thought.

[Ordinarygamer96 785]

Just now, water.exe said:

I am sorry I have other responsibilities than sitting at the forums or ingames all day I will remember to tell my place of employment that the shipyard life is giving my ptsd and i need a safe space at home for several weeks out of the year and have that all paid for.

 

 

In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants. Additionally, Contreras found that at coffee farms in the Mexican state Chiapas, "40,000 Guatemalan field hands endure backbreaking jobs and squalid living conditions to earn roughly [US]$3.50 a day" and that some farmers "even deduct the cost of room and board from that amount."[3] In 2008, the Mexican National Institute of Migration estimated that 400,235 people crossed the border illegally every year and that around 150,000 of them intended to enter the United States.[4]

Contreras, Joseph (June 5, 2006), "Stepping Over the Line", Newsweek, 147 (23), p. 72

Gorney, Cynthia (February 2008), "Mexico's Other Border", National Geographic, 213 (2), pp. 60–79

 

@Ordinarygamer96 if you want to subscribe to the social justice you claim to support prove your morals and move to Mexico and work in the fields. If you refuse you are hypocrite and your argument is simply statements or excuses why you shouldn't be the included in it. Also more fun facts provided from our neighbor to the south yes I was proved wrong and I can accept that, I should've done the leg work instead of relying on one source before i posted about the wall on the southern border. But I would like to see the US adopt the same policy that we suggested to mexico where we have the state police, Immigration officals(ICE), US Army/marine/navy monitoring our borders just like mexico adopted Programa Frontera Sur.
The Globe and Mail: "Southern exposure: The costly border plan Mexico won’t discuss" by Stephanie Nolen January 5, 2017

They currently have  a system similar to us but your own sources say they do grant legal status to thousands. Provide any proof deporting illegals does more harm than good. Most economists think it will skyrocket food prices and cause a labor shortage.

[Dakota 4722]

2 hours ago, Travesty said:

 

Coffee shops may be have rights but Cake shops don't

 

http://aclu-co.org/court-rules-bakery-illegally-discriminated-against-gay-couple/

Again. Protected class. 

[water.exe 725]

Just now, Ordinarygamer96 said:

They currently have  a system similar to us but your own sources say they do grant legal status to thousands. Provide any proof deporting illegals does more harm than good. Most economists think it will skyrocket food prices and cause a labor shortage.

Oh I'm sorry i used words structured in a way that made it incomprehensible for you to understand let me just use big bold numbers for. In 2008, the Mexican National Institute of Migration estimated that 400,235 people crossed the border illegally every year and that around 150,000 of them intended to enter the United States.[4] In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants

So in the 400,000 thousands that crossed illegally to mexico 150,000 thousand intended to enter the us. So of the 150,000 that remained in mexico only 15,000 were granted citizenship a staggering 10%. Provide proof that a majority of economists think the price of food will skyrocket and we will have a food shortage if we deport illegals cause this is the 3rd time i've seen you use that argument, 2nd time in this thread and you never provided proof. Also like I said before either you provide facts and logic against you SJW stance about letting illegals you committed a federal crime by either willingly overstayed their visas or entered the US illegally need to be deported back to their home country.

[Dakota 4722]

Just now, water.exe said:

Oh I'm sorry i used words structured in a way that made it incomprehensible for you to understand let me just use big bold numbers for. In 2008, the Mexican National Institute of Migration estimated that 400,235 people crossed the border illegally every year and that around 150,000 of them intended to enter the United States.[4] In 2006, Joseph Contreras profiled the issue of Guatemalan immigrants illegally entering Mexico for Newsweek magazine and pointed out that while Mexican president Vicente Fox demanded that the United States grant legal residency to millions of illegal Mexican immigrants, Mexico had only granted legal status to 15,000 illegal immigrants

So in the 400,000 thousands that crossed illegally to mexico 150,000 thousand intended to enter the us. So of the 150,000 that remained in mexico only 15,000 were granted citizenship a staggering 10%. Provide proof that a majority of economists think the price of food will skyrocket and we will have a food shortage if we deport illegals cause this is the 3rd time i've seen you use that argument, 2nd time in this thread and you never provided proof. Also like I said before either you provide facts and logic against you SJW stance about letting illegals you committed a federal crime by either willingly overstayed their visas or entered the US illegally need to be deported back to their home country.

Do you not know how numbers work? 

[fatb0y 1337]

Just now, Beerman said:

Again. Protected class. 

 

That has yet to be decided by SCOTUS.

 

http://www.scotusblog.com/case-files/cases/masterpiece-cakeshop-ltd-v-colorado-civil-rights-commn/

[water.exe 725]

Just now, Beerman said:

Do you not know how numbers work? 

Elaborate because as it stands now my numbers show the estimated totals from Mexico on the number of illegal Guatemalans entering Mexico Illegally. Mexico president granted 10% of the them Mexican citizenship while he demands the US grant citizenship to all the Illegals the US has. To me this is completely stupid and it supports my argument against @Ordinarygamer96. Mexico wants the US to grant citizenship to MILLIONS after he grants only 15,000 citizenship. Immigration will always be an issue where the people are either for or against illegals either getting citizenship or getting deported.

 

[Cman 469]

Just now, water.exe said:

Elaborate because as it stands now my numbers show the estimated totals from Mexico on the number of illegal Guatemalans entering Mexico Illegally. Mexico president granted 10% of the them Mexican citizenship while he demands the US grant citizenship to all the Illegals the US has. To me this is completely stupid and it supports my argument against @Ordinarygamer96. Mexico wants the US to grant citizenship to MILLIONS after he grants only 15,000 citizenship. Immigration will always be an issue where the people are either for or against illegals either getting citizenship or getting deported.

 

we all know that the US wont grant all those people citizenship so why are you even aguring about this. 

[Ordinarygamer96 785]

Just now, water.exe said:

Elaborate because as it stands now my numbers show the estimated totals from Mexico on the number of illegal Guatemalans entering Mexico Illegally. 

 

Are you really not able to see you're basic addition and subtraction mistakes above?

[water.exe 725]

Just now, Ordinarygamer96 said:

Are you really not able to see you're basic addition and subtraction mistakes above?

Sorry my bad as I get up at the ass early hours of the day and work in a labor industry. Seeing that only makes the numbers slightly better raising it from 10% to 16.6% and using numbers only granting 15,000 people out of the 250,000 that were not crossing into the US doesn't make it look better but nice deflection on your argument as I am still waiting on those quotes from the economists that say food prices will skyrocket and we will have a food shortage.

[fatb0y 1337]

Just now, water.exe said:

Sorry my bad as I get up at the ass early hours of the day and work in a labor industry. Seeing that only makes the numbers slightly better raising it from 10% to 16.6% and using numbers only granting 15,000 people out of the 250,000 that were not crossing into the US doesn't make it look better but nice deflection on your argument as I am still waiting on those quotes from the economists that say food prices will skyrocket and we will have a food shortage.

 

Are you implying America is the same as Mexico? Or America should act the same way as Mexico? Are you implying that America should adjust their immigration policies in response to Mexican immigration policies?

 

What is the point of this comparison? Are you the type of person who believes that two wrongs make a right? Why does Mexico's immigration statistics even matter to America? 

[trav 6834]

Even Trump acknowledged that anyone with a rope and ladder can get up and down from his wall. The wall would be a great waste of money. 

[Rootbeer 1293]

What was the thread topic about again????

[trav 6834]

Just now, Rootbeer said:

What was the thread topic about again????

 

Gemma

[TheOrangeGrape 48]

Just now, Ordinarygamer96 said:

you're basic addition

[Fugner 1019]

27 minutes ago, Travesty said:

 

Gemma

KEK 

 

[Wintergreen 1603]

I come here for memes and shit talk. Not legitimate political debate (or whatever we call what Water does)

[ctark 1983]

Just something to stimulate the conversation again...