Level-Headed Religious Discussion

[Balthazar 15]

Okay this is going to be pretty long, so if you don't like reading, gtfo my thread. =D

Alright. Religion, it just doesn't make sense to me, I'll start by talking about why I don't like religion, then about some of my personal beliefs here.

One thing that really miffs me about religion is the how no one can seem to agree on one set thing. There are hundreds of religions across the world, now tell me, in a time where space travel isn't much of a problem and with the internet in such, how can such an advanced people have such a difficult time agreeing on this one thing? It does not make sense to me, especially when there are several different interpretations of one religion, or religions who use the same god under a different name. You would think if people truly believed and if the stories were true they would all unite under one banner for the betterment of man. But alas, this is not so.

Some of the facts about origins of religion are also just too coincidental, for example:

Written in 1280 BC, The Book of the Dead describes a God, Horus... Horus is the son of the god Osiris... born to a virgin mother. He was baptized in a river by Anup the Baptizer... who was later beheaded. Like Jesus, Horus was tempted while alone in the desert... Healed the sick... The blind... Cast out demons... And walked on water... He raised Asar from the dead. 'Asar' translates to 'Lazarus'. Oh yeah, he also had 12 disciples. Yes, Horus was crucified first... And after 3 days, two women announced... Horus, the savior of humanity... had been resurrected.

Now how is it that 1000 years later that story happened to be told with a different name or 2 here and there and all of a sudden bam religious following forever more? It doesn't make sense to me and I don't get how so many people do not see these things and question them either.

One of my favorite movies ever is Religious Bill Maher comes up with really great points against religion and somehow, people just cant come back with anything 99% of the time. I don't hate religion I just don't get it. But here's some good thoughts from his movie.

"You have the ten commandments, but it's not really a wise list of the ten. The first four are about just worshiping God, and, basically, a jealous god. And he doesn't want you to have any other gods. The only two that are really laws are: don't steal and don't kill. Why is this the wisest group of ten that doesn't include child abuse; it doesn't include don't torture; it doesn't include a lot of things, rape, that, I think, if I were making a list today, we would probably include."

I personally wouldn't unite under half the gods out there if they were proven to be real anyways because they sound like jealous assholes who probably spend their time trolling 4chan or these forums, they don't do shit for humanity, humanity needs to do its own shit for ourselves.

Now partially into my thoughts on religion and my personal standing.

Now, I am Agnostic, for those of you unaware, that basically means I will only believe in what can be proven to me, what I can see with my own two eyes.

I personally think religion takes away from the accomplishment of man. Allow me to explain, everyone is constantly saying "oh thank god I had the strength to make it through that" or "God give me the strength to.."

I always say if you want something done right, do it yourself. There is no greater power than believing in yourself, there is a saying "You cannot expect others to love you if you do not love yourself" I feel expresses the same idea fundamentally. When I hear someone say thank god I say "No, thank you, for working so hard your whole life and sticking in there and having a good work ethic and a positive attitude, thank you, not god"

If there is one person you should believe in over everyone else, it is yourself, you control your actions you control your mind, your decisions are your own. If everything was predetermined that would mean god would already know if you were going to heaven or hell before you were even born and therefore your life is technically worthless because you have no say in the matter, and I refuse to believe that, especially with no proof.

Many of you on the forums here are accomplished in the jobs you do, and thank you for being that way, you must have worked very hard wherever you learned your craft, whether it be college, a technical school, or just hard practice yourself at home, and you shouldn't let anyone take that from you, let alone some god you never see. So good for you, keep up the hard work, and make your lives great.

Only you have the power to change your life, to change others experience in this life. I strive to become the best person I can be, for other people, for myself, for the future. There's probably some stuff I left out because so much of this runs through my head when I do end up thinking about it, and I really do love sharing my opinion and seeing what other people have to say about it. To finish up here, one final quote and one of my favorite sayings from Bill Maher's Religulous.

"The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having in key decisions made by religious people. By irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn't learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting shit dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die. "

Note: I really have no problem with religion in general, it's just when it endangers man or is detrimental to our advancement/ well-being that I become very opposed to it.

[Freekiller #3 342]

Yah man I understand what you're saying when, god was making the universe all he had to do was believe in him self!

edit: What's to look forward to in old age if there is no umm ex: heaven? religion gives people hope.

[Balthazar 15]

Yah man I understand what you're saying when, god was making the universe all he had to do was believe in him self!

edit: What's to look forward to in old age if there is no umm ex: heaven? religion gives people hope.

Good to see religion still has some good arguements rofl. <3

and to the edit, with all serious I mean no offense to anyone but IMO needing ideas about after death is for the weak.

We are all currently living right now. We should be focused on living the best life we can possibly live and hope that when we die, we lived a life good enough that no matter our beliefs something good may happen, and if not, accept it because we did live our life the best we could for ourselves and others, and if that is not enough, you probably wouldn't be heading to heaven anyways.

[Frosted Butts 53]

I love thinking about this stuff. I don't believe in any God, I used to believe in ghosts (kind of, some wierd shit happened to me and my family), and I don't understand those who devote their lives to an idea or a book. But it's not like it bothers me. God-fearing people are usually happy to believe in Him, so that's nice. Plus, whether or not there is a supernatural power, a lot of religions teach good behaviour. [<------british spelling ftw] Religion is/was often the only thing keeping people going in tough times.

[Balthazar 15]

I love thinking about this stuff. I don't believe in any God, I used to believe in ghosts (kind of, some wierd shit happened to me and my family), and I don't understand those who devote their lives to an idea or a book. But it's not like it bothers me. God-fearing people are usually happy to believe in Him, so that's nice. Plus, whether or not there is a supernatural power, a lot of religions teach good behaviour. [<------british spelling ftw] Religion is/was often the only thing keeping people going in tough times.

I understand what you are saying but on some level that usage of religion is precisely my point, Man has invented all these incredible things, yet we cling to religion for security in the afterlife and such because we are too afraid to break free and be our own people and live without those ideals. We should be able to live indepenent without religion, I feel mankind should be stronger than that by now. We should not need someone telling us if we are good good things will happen and we will go to a good place, that's like telling children about santa claus, you would think at some point people would just get over it. But in the world these days is still doesn't surprise me people need it to feel comfort because well, look at the world.

[Guitar Guy 25]

Complexity implies a designer.

However I have no need for organized religion. I can see how it would give some people things to look forward to, the light at the end of the tunnel, etc.

I'm a deist. For those who don't know (Taken from wikipedia)

Deism in the philosophy of religion is the standpoint that reason and observation of the natural world, without the need for organized religion, can determine that a supreme being created the universe. Further the term often implies that this supreme being does not intervene in human affairs or suspend the natural laws of the universe.

[Balthazar 15]

Complexity implies a designer.

However I have no need for organized religion. I can see how it would give some people things to look forward to, the light at the end of the tunnel, etc.

I'm a deist. For those who don't know (Taken from wikipedia)

Looking it up, that kind of religion I can actually see making sense, If I ever had a religion it would probably learn towards that one Guitar. Thank you for your sharing sir. =D

[Carl Sagan 2577]

God said the bible is true.

Your argument is therefore invalid.

[Balthazar 15]

God said the bible is true.

Your argument is therefore invalid.

Thanks for keeping true to the assumption that half the clan is unable to be serious for at least 5 seconds.

And also thank you for not contributing to the thread whatsoever.

[Frosted Butts 53]

I understand what you are saying but on some level that usage of religion is precisely my point, Man has invented all these incredible things, yet we cling to religion for security in the afterlife and such because we are too afraid to break free and be our own people and live without those ideals. We should be able to live indepenent without religion, I feel mankind should be stronger than that by now. We should not need someone telling us if we are good good things will happen and we will go to a good place, that's like telling children about santa claus, you would think at some point people would just get over it. But in the world these days is still doesn't surprise me people need it to feel comfort because well, look at the world.

People will never let go of religion. Every time science can disprove a God, people will adapt just like they did with evolution and "intelligent design."

[Formerly known as Karma 0]

Every time science can disprove a God, people will adapt just like they did with evolution and "intelligent design."

Science can't prove there's no god. It's not possible.

[Church 1]

evolution and "intelligent design."

to be honest, I think the " evolution " was Gods attempts at intelligent design. so in my head both are right. God was like " Lets make man " " Fuck, that doesn't look anything like me" " Lets call that a monkey "

[Goldentongue 3616]

Complexity implies a designer.

However I have no need for organized religion. I can see how it would give some people things to look forward to, the light at the end of the tunnel, etc.

I'm a deist. For those who don't know (Taken from wikipedia)

Complexity implies... complexity.

It's a subjective term. Where's the threshold between "complex" and "simple"?

[Goldentongue 3616]

Science can't prove there's no god. It's not possible.

It can prove there is no god of the Bible, Torah, Quran, or any other religious writing that claims to be absolute truth.

[Spell 331]

Honestly, religion in general is a backwards belief system in my eyes. I personally learn to agnostic or deist(thank you guitar). Personally I believe that there could possibly be a god, yet I honestly wonder at how people can pray and shit to this all seeing God, when if you look at the universe in scientific perspective, Earth is a tiny spec of dust in a giant super cluster sized bowl of dirt...

However, i also honestly feel that all people are entitled to their own personal beliefs, and that as such each person should be allowed to pursue any means of happiness in their belief system as long as your belief system does not physically or mentally harm another person.

[Super Novacaine 2228]

Level-Headed Religious Debate

On a more serious note though, I'm honestly not sure if there is such thing as a "God". When I think about God, I think of it almost singularly as the cause of the universe, as opposed to an actual "being" that many religions believe it to be (because that just seems ridiculous to me). Though I'm never really able to come to any conclusions, because I don't know whether the universe ever needed something to start it, or whether it could have just existed, for lack of a better word, forever.

[Johnny Dangerous 3]

The one thing that always bothered me about religion is that (some of) the faithful simply cannot stand the idea of evolution. Even if God really does exist, then looking around is it really so hard to believe he planned evolution? Could he not have worked it in, in His infinite wisdom? I mean yes, it does contradict some religious texts. But so does the fact that the earth is older than 6000 years, of which we have much evidence.

The other one thing that always bothered me is people who only believe bits and pieces of their religious text. I mean, if the whole thing is supposedly written by God, shouldn't it all be true? And if any one thing is false, couldn't anything be false? Doesn't that invalidate the entire text?

[Zachmanman 877]

god is an alien being

[Shadow 1044]

god is an alien being

Tom Cruise.

We all have aliens inside us and we need to get them out by doing things. Fair summary.

I just pray to zach when I need things and shit gets done.

[Dojima 7619]

Only skimmed your initial post, but it seems you're missing the point of religion. It's largely just the belief in something greater than yourself, which gives people hope in despair.

and to the edit, with all serious I mean no offense to anyone but IMO needing ideas about after death is for the weak.

See if you still think that way when you're older. Right now you're a young guy with pretty much nothing to lose and everything to gain.

I'm a deist. For those who don't know (Taken from wikipedia)

Also a deist. I believe there exist beings we'd consider to be gods, but that they don't really act in a way people typically consider gods to act.

[Mitch 2111]

For me there are quite a few things that make me believe religion is true.

First off, the complexity of Biology and how Biology works is way too damn complex for everything to have happened on it's own. Something, somewhere out there had to have made everything we see today - different religions are simply different theories on how we came to be what we are today.

I also hold my religion close to me. Fuck yeah, call me a weak person - but my religion gives me the hope and strength for a better tomorrow.

Finally, there's just something about religion that has benefits to society and humanity. Sure, religion has had it's fuckups in the past and present causing many tense feelings between humans. But it has many benefits to our society and humanity as a whole.

Didn't want to get too drawn into this thread however. :3

[Nitestalker 792]

Because these debates never stay level headed, I will just say that I personally believe religion has no place in our modern age, and is for lack of a better word..useless.

[Guest Horny©at]

The flattest pancake has two sides bro, but I have a similar take on religion.

For example, mitch said he holds religion dear and religions been proven to increase your life expectancy by more than 1 year, a nice little pro there. I respect that, you believe what you want I believe what I want but when it gets to the point where we kill because of religion, shit needs to change.

I do believe there is a higher power, beyond space and time, but it's not something for us to know.

The thing that really baffles me is there is no way in hell every thing in the world aligns so perfectly and right just by ourselves. Is it just a coincidence that we breath one of the most abundant elements on earth, that if we change just the slightest variable in oxygen or nitrogen, all goes to hell; or maybe that ecosystems are tuned to perfection all over the world, and even maybe the universe; that the sun is optimal distance from Earth and that the planets match up in such a beautifully uncanny manner.

It's the little things that scare me on how things just click together extremely well. I don't think it's coincidental.

Religion : Deism

P.S. Westboro church can go burn straight to fucking hell

[Goldentongue 3616]

For me there are quite a few things that make me believe religion is true.

First off, the complexity of Biology and how Biology works is way too damn complex for everything to have happened on it's own. Something, somewhere out there had to have made everything we see today - different religions are simply different theories on how we came to be what we are today.

If you're drawing your ideas based on the workings of biology, I'd suggest trusting biologists.

The number of biology professors, researchers, and members of the National Science Foundation who believe in atheistic evolution greatly dwarfs the number who believe in creation or deity-assisted evolution.

There's nothing incomprehensibly complex about biology or any other aspect of science when you consider that every change that occurred opened the door for more changes, and so on and so on. Even if every organism has only two instances of mutation that develop into a new organism and you start with the most simplistic collection of life-like proteins, very soon you're dealing with immense amounts of difference and complexity. You can think of it a lot like if you started with a grain of rice, but every day you multiplied how much you had by two. Except every new grain of rice has a new adaptation added on to what was developed by previous generations. Multiply these tiny changes by billions of years of opportunity, success, failure, and changing environmental factors. As complex as it seems, it's all still the same elements as when life started obeying the same very basic laws of physics.

[Goldentongue 3616]

that the sun is optimal distance from Earth

Ever consider that we're here because the sun is the "optimal" distance from the Earth, and not the other way around?

the planets match up in such a beautifully uncanny manner.

Now this just makes no sense.