Race Whoring Rule

[Noire 17]

yes, and i bet the teams werent stacked huh black mage? I noticed you used several ways including the race whoring rule to balance teams. Nice Job! (two thumbs up from me) seriously nice job =)

[Jason 786]

Let me make this clear. I don't want opinions on how the rules of WC2 work. I want suggestions and debates relevant to WC1 and WC1 ONLY.

However, 4 comments I'd like to make.

@Noire: Anything goodcat says is invalid. From what I understand, and have seen, he is the reason WC2 is so damn unstable.

@Noire 2: WCS1 and WCS2 have completely different styles of game play, something which I believe you have said yourself. Why should the rules be different? Because the servers are different themselves.

@Noire 3: Those were incredibly old complaints, spread over a long period of time.

@Pebbz: Be nice <3. You don't have to get into a debate with him every time.

@ChosenOne: Stop being such a smart ass. Seriously, every post I see of you is you going off on something or someone. Not because it's even relevant to the subject, but almost more because you feel your special in whatever way.

My opinion on this is just abolish the rule, and do a decent team manager/scrambler based on the scores of individual players, something achieved with incredible ease based in SourceMod, and likely ES as well. Races have a huge impact on gameplay of course, but the point of a race whoring rule is to even gameplay. Balancing teams does that just as well, however it does not limit a player from playing as well as he or she is able to. I'm quite possibly going to do this, if only for a trial basis sometime at the end of the month. For now, like I said before: leave WC2 out of this topic from now on.

[Noire 17]

Let me make this clear. I don't want opinions on how the rules of WC2 work. I want suggestions and debates relevant to WC1 and WC1 ONLY.

However, 4 comments I'd like to make.

@Noire: Anything goodcat says is invalid. From what I understand, and have seen, he is the reason WC2 is so damn unstable.

@Noire 2: WCS1 and WCS2 have completely different styles of game play, something which I believe you have said yourself. Why should the rules be different? Because the servers are different themselves.

@Noire 3: Those were incredibly old complaints, spread over a long period of time.

@Pebbz: Be nice <3. You don't have to get into a debate with him every time.

@ChosenOne: Stop being such a smart ass. Seriously, every post I see of you is you going off on something or someone. Not because it's even relevant to the subject, but almost more because you feel your special in whatever way.

My opinion on this is just abolish the rule, and do a decent team manager/scrambler based on the scores of individual players, something achieved with incredible ease based in SourceMod, and likely ES as well. Races have a huge impact on gameplay of course, but the point of a race whoring rule is to even gameplay. Balancing teams does that just as well, however it does not limit a player from playing as well as he or she is able to. I'm quite possibly going to do this, if only for a trial basis sometime at the end of the month. For now, like I said before: leave WC2 out of this topic from now on.

Noire 1 : What about oreo? and the rule wouldnt have anything to do with stability of the server...

Noire 2: I've said the races are balanced differently, but either way its still possible to whore races on either servers.

If this rule is taken out of server 1, I am not going to enforce it on server 2. This is why I bring server 2 into the picture. I dont see why you guys are trying so hard to get it off server 1, but keep it on server 2. If we are working to make server 1 better, why not work to make server 2 better since it has been dropping in rank points and is constantly empty. Or do we just not care about server 2 anymore?

[ChosenOne2000 4440]

If this rule is taken out of server 1, I am not going to enforce it on server 2. This is why I bring server 2 into the picture. I dont see why you guys are trying so hard to get it off server 1, but keep it on server 2. If we are working to make server 1 better, why not work to make server 2 better since it has been dropping in rank points and is constantly empty. Or do we just not care about server 2 anymore?

Every bit of this.....

@ Mario: It's my opinion, deal with it. If I break the rules, hit me with an infraction. If you DISAGREE with my statement, counter with an intelligent comment. Saying that I'm a "smartass" doesn't qualify and is counterproductive to a debate and your "leadership" abilities. If you want a relevant debate I'm open to it. If you want to scream and yell, PM me. This thread isn't the place.

[Yiyas 66]

I'm guessing we should remove the freekilling rule from jailbreak too huh? Or do people now have a legit reason not to follow that rule there due to it not existing on other servers?

WCS Server 2 hasn't had a dedicated and obsessive engineer who will go through every race and iron out the kinks yet. It had an engineer who added Goodkat c&p races. Races that didn't work, don't work, won't work. Races that can run the speed of light and deal the wrath of god in damage. Took a couple months to nerf these didn't it? Then it had Polis who is half assed; an engineer who may know half his stuff but doesn't have the time/dedication to rework every race. Now it has nobody.

I'm not saying #1 is run better or gets more attention but it does get a lot of my time. Meaning it gets lot of minor adjustments now and again. Not only do I adjust outside the game in order to fix coding but I observe inside the game to see who gets good ratios and why, if it's due to the race then the race gets nerfed in a specific skill. Anyone who played regularly would know my huge nerfs to several races when I started out, or the amount of time I just sit in spectator watching the game unfold. I also play the game and have over 1800 levels in the server which are naturally earned. I also have several people who will talk to me and show me bugs or improvements I should apply to the server. Despite rewriting half of #2s races I don't have the time to constantly monitor two servers.

Although I can't say all races are totally balanced and bug free, I can say that the majority of races have been ironed out into the same level. Races like Human General and Judge of Altana are quite easily whore-able but this is due to me fixing the previously buggy coding in them. The racewhoring rule certainly applies less on #1 than it does on #2 and it has not been followed until recently.

EDIT: Wont add noblock. It does make knifing too easy, no one would be able to kill me if I could maintain my longjump speed while knifing. No one is able to kill me on surfdm.

[missing-zelda 0]

I'm guessing we should remove the freekilling rule from jailbreak too huh? Or do people now have a legit reason not to follow that rule there due to it not existing on other servers?

WCS Server 2 hasn't had a dedicated and obsessive engineer who will go through every race and iron out the kinks yet. It had an engineer who added Goodkat c&p races. Races that didn't work, don't work, won't work. Races that can run the speed of light and deal the wrath of god in damage. Took a couple months to nerf these didn't it? Then it had Polis who is half assed; an engineer who may know half his stuff but doesn't have the time/dedication to rework every race. Now it has nobody.

I'm not saying #1 is run better or gets more attention but it does get a lot of my time. Meaning it gets lot of minor adjustments now and again. Not only do I adjust outside the game in order to fix coding but I observe inside the game to see who gets good ratios and why, if it's due to the race then the race gets nerfed in a specific skill. Anyone who played regularly would know my huge nerfs to several races when I started out, or the amount of time I just sit in spectator watching the game unfold. I also play the game and have over 1800 levels in the server which are naturally earned. I also have several people who will talk to me and show me bugs or improvements I should apply to the server. Despite rewriting half of #2s races I don't have the time to constantly monitor two servers.

Although I can't say all races are totally balanced and bug free, I can say that the majority of races have been ironed out into the same level. Races like Human General and Judge of Altana are quite easily whore-able but this is due to me fixing the previously buggy coding in them. The racewhoring rule certainly applies less on #1 than it does on #2 and it has not been followed until recently.

EDIT: Wont add noblock. It does make knifing too easy, no one would be able to kill me if I could maintain my longjump speed while knifing. No one is able to kill me on surfdm.

Why is that exactly? Im simply curious as to why we are singling out one server. I know you say the servers have different gameplay and different races, but im pretty sure no matter the server there will always be somebody complaining about racewhores. But is this also what you mean yiyas by saying you watch the gameplay of people whoring and things like that, and then nerf it if needed? And also that one major reason is a lack of engineer on wc2? Im just trying to understand a little more. not taking a side.

[Yiyas 66]

Well first off this is the Server1 thread, yknow, that means server2 can be ignored entirely in any thread posted here. You can, if you want, start a thread asking to remove the Race Whoring Rule on server2 in the server2 thread which is for server2 matters.

No matter what server you're in someone will complain. On #2 I've racewhored Mr Generosity. On #1 Pebbz has racewhored Infected. On #2 Noire has racewhored Human. On #1 Ghoul has racewhored Orc. Are these strong races? No, not really. Is everyone who plays them called a racewhore? Nope.

So how does #2 recieve worse racewhoring? Perhaps because you are, by rules, allowed to racewhore some races up to and over 50 levels and get off scott free while you level useless skills in that race which provide minimal extra benefits. Also the fact you can be told to get off a race which doesn't benefit you in one bit or is in fact the worst race imaginable. Also the fact that numerous coders have provided different types of races on the server, whereas on #1 its just Bios races and Yiyas races and I've tried to keep my races on the same power level as Bios'. The rule itself has gone totally whacko. Half the time it's just idiots not playing the right race for the right job, if you were playing a strategy game you wouldn't send 500 horsemen versus 500 tanks. Nor would you see those 500 tank teams get out of their tanks to brawl with the horsemen because it's "vehicle whoring". The other half of the time it's unbalanced teams.

And about me watching what needs nerfed? Well you don't see Dracula with blinking invis anymore do you? It happened on #2 too when Sandman was active and he would nerf quite a few races now and again.

[LinK 0]

There is no one left on server2 to vote on this topic, it would probably be a tie, 2-2.

[Noire 17]

There is no one left on server2 to vote on this topic, it would probably be a tie, 2-2.

I always see less than 10 ppl in the server now.... Can't really get a lot of votes from there

[missing-zelda 0]

Im not trying to get it removed or not, I don't care about that. I was just asking some questions which you answered so thank you is all I have to say and im done with this topic now. But I think I might start playing in wc1 just to see these things for myself..

[Konah 0]

I would agree with Link, completely scratch both those ideas and get rid of the rule. No matter which race you are on, if you are good, you are going to continue to play well. There are so many races that are similar it has become kind of pointless, as you can just switch to a similar race and play the same...

Human -> Human Gen -> Tatsu Ice Dragon -> Fire Dragon -> Beast... Map over...

How many races with longjump? With speed? With roots?

But people will continue to complain when they die all too often, which isn't unreasonable, but all they really have to do is think about which race would counter the "whore" the best.

If our only choices are those two, Mario, I'd go with the second one. If we could implement scrapping the rule altogether, I'd vote with that.

[Yiyas 66]

Give it time Konah, it'll be gone soon

Theres only about 4 ulti immune races though, I'm planning to add some as well as some crusaders wish races.

[Konah 0]

Just be careful with the Ultimate-Immune races please, Yiyas :-/

My favorite race on the server is the Golden-Tail Samurai, and the only way you can NOT be a sitting duck is using your ultimate. I know it's a counter to the race to have an Ultimate block, but that really makes me completely useless, especially if there will be more of them. At the moment I *think* it's just Akroma, Warden, the new race with the AoE, and Keldon Warlord? Akroma is godly in my eyes, and the new one is fun too, but if there are a bunch of good races with the block, Golden-Tail will become obsolete.

UNLESS! You could change the teleport to an ability, and give it some shitty ass ultimate? Or none at all, I'd be fine with that. Wishful thinking, eh?

[Pebbz. 953]

If this rule is taken out of server 1, I am not going to enforce it on server 2. This is why I bring server 2 into the picture. I dont see why you guys are trying so hard to get it off server 1, but keep it on server 2. If we are working to make server 1 better, why not work to make server 2 better since it has been dropping in rank points and is constantly empty. Or do we just not care about server 2 anymore?

Oh and here I thought you were here to enforce the rules? Seems like your just acting like a baby that can't get its way. If A is not going to have the rule, then I'm not going to enforce it on B. No one is not trying to keep it on WCS2. If the players of WCS2 want to abolish the rule, then that's an option. We are just isolating the servers and having server specific rules.

Whether or not someone cares about WCS2, it is another issue that has to be dealt with. Are you trying to make someone feel guilty that we're aren't focusing on WCS2?

Let's just face it. This rule is definitely going to be removed from WCS1, whether you like it or not.

[BeauutifulChaos 902]

There needs to be race whoring rules set for BOTH servers.

Because there are two WCS servers, of course people from server 1 are going to not want it, and people from server 2 are going to not want it.

BOTH NEED IT. It is as simple as that.

How strong it is, or what exactly is inside both of the rules can vary.

But I strongly feel both need a race whoring rule.

WTF, why should one server be allowed to race whore over another.

Edit: You guys need to get off Noire's ass. He has different opinions coming at him from all different ways and all he is trying to do is what is best for these servers. Why don't you try being pulled apart from 208357 different directions and then try to make EVERYONE happy. It's not easy and it is VERY stressful.

[Empire 30]

@ chaos: fine. wcs1's new rule should be 5:1, after 30 kills, then switch off to ANY other race (doesn't have to be one you haven't maxed)

@ Yiyas&Konah

Fox Samurai is MY favorite race, as anyone who has played compound with me can agree. The races that kill Fox are not ultimate blocking races, they are the Roots races. The roots last about 3-5 seconds which give the players (usually more than 1) plenty of time to unload a full clip into you. Especially when they just wait in a corner for you.

For the ultimate blocking races Konah, you just have to use BHopping skills and ultimate to them unawares, knife them then run/jump away. (you should have sock o' feather too so you can probably jump over some obstacle they cannot)

[missing-zelda 0]

Interesting... So what is actually being done NOW for results of this rule in EITHER server? Or are we still waiting for Mario to fix some other things first?

[Kai! 3]

WTF, why should one server be allowed to race whore over another.

Beside the fact that this server has an active engineer debugging and finding the 'equilibrium' of the races,

1.Try one's best to even teams out the teams in a fair and even method without regard to personal benifit or other's feelings or love for teamstacking.

So are the people here who are in favor of the race whore rule are really in favor of fair teams?

[Zagrao 0]

I'm in favor of fair teams, but all we really need is an effective ATB that checks every 2 rounds.

[iyedol 16]

It is amazing, the people who plays on the server the most are requesting the rule be removed but some people who hardly plays on the server are still trying to enforce it.

The rule must be remove... period.

Get a mod or what ever to autobalance the teams and I think most of us will be happy.

Are we going to start complaining that some races (Human General, Outlaw) need to be remove in the future?

WCS1 is okay the way it is , some races and shopmenu items need to be fine tuned to make it great.

[Zagrao 0]

iyedol, I do hope you know I'm a dedicated #1 server person, and I'm those few people that enforce the racewhore rule. Despite if ppl feel it's not worth it, i'm going to enforce the rule until it's removed.

[iyedol 16]

I know your dedication Black Mage. If the rule is put into play base on this thread I will gladly enforce it.

[Noire 17]

On #2 Noire has racewhored Human.

Actually I just noticed this. I whored human on server 1, not on server 2. I never got in trouble for "Whoring" any races on server 2. It was all done on server 1 (before ANY race whoring rule was around)

Also Iyedol, the race whoring rule has been on the server for a LONG time. Just most of the people in server 1 would chase the admins away to server 2 because of their resistance to said rule.

Now admins are enforcing it, not caving in to the people demanding that such rule doesnt exist. This is what created so many complaints towards the rule.

[Konah 0]

It is amazing, the people who plays on the server the most are requesting the rule be removed but some people who hardly plays on the server are still trying to enforce it.

QFT. But this is how it has always been about everything, no-name faces coming in with requests and complaints, stopping those of us who play there all the time (some of us play there exclusively, like myself) from making beneficial changes.

@Empire: Of course I have sock of feather :-P I usually do sock of feather and speed x2, or longjump instead of the speed boosts. I usually notice the Ulti block when I am rooted, ironically, because on the offchance I live I can't get away, then get kinda frustrated. Over the recent week or two I have gotten pretty deadly with it.

[Zagrao 0]

You still can't beat lonjump with jihadist and blowing up their entire team, which I have managed to do