ISIS attacks on Paris, state of emergency

[Dr. NarwhalsNumbNuts IV 2291]

I agree with you.

My only point was that some people believe this is solely a geopolitical issue.

Narwhals - I'm on my phone at the moment but just to throw a stat out there for you. 72% of Muslims believed that the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo deserved some sort of punishment. I think that says something about the beliefs of many Muslims.

72%? A whopping 720,000,000 Muslims were surveryed saying that?

 

I agree that they should have faced some sort of punishment; but by killing or by blood? Hell no. A public apology or retraction would've been nice. That wasn't gonna happen either way, so it should've been a "fuck em" and move on with your life. This post is sure to get some neg rep, but it's my opinion. The issue with ISIS and Islam isn't religous at all; they're using the banner of religion to push their agendas. ISIS is widely vilified thoroughout the world, Muslim or not. Like I said, the vast majority of religious practioners are moderates and/liberals, it's not the religion that's flawed, it's the people that interpert and manipulate each ideology to work for them. 

 

Furthermore, rather than working with these moderate groups, the outside world looking in sees ISIS as a reflection of all Muslims. The fear mongering that ISIS starts is exacerbated by the blissfully ignorant "outsiders", futher bunching the moderates with the insane lunatics that give them a bad name. People like Ben Carson or Trump, high profile individuals giving non-Muslim remarks in the media are seen as the level-headed folks people should be listening to, rather than dissecting it for the racist remarks they are. I know you guys aren't saying FUCK MUSLIMS DIE, but a lot of others using similar arguments are. I agree with you Kim, that using social interactions in conjunction with religion is most beneficial. Trav, the Quran is the literal word of God, that is what we are taught. If you look at the stories in the Bible and the Quran, they are identical. Abraham, Jesus, Moses, Solomon are all in the Quran too. But by not following every, exact, minute detail, we aren't condemning ourselves. We are human, I think that's what we are here for; whether one takes the guidence or doesn't, just live a good life and that's enough. ISIS takes the guidence, bends it to their will - a sin, ironically- and gets us painted in with the rest of them with a very broad brush. 

[trav 6834]

I disagree. "War lord" is a bit extreme, especially given that the Crusades and other righteous wars came out of spreading their influence from all religions. The difference between ISIS and the Prophet's are HUGE. He had very specific instructions for warfare;

     Don't cut down trees,

     don't kill women or children, or the elderly,

     don't destroy places of worship, regardless of religion,

    treat prisoners of war fairly and treat them well, to name a few. 

You're also forgetting that ISIS has killed more than 150,000 Muslims in the past two years. ISIS has done nothing more than spit on his teachings.

More Muslim countries have women in higher political positions, such as Indonesia, Turkey, Jordan, Malaysia and more. You have more extreme countries like Saudi Arabia which most certainly give women less rights than our nation or others, but even they are - slowly - moving towards more reformed, modern societies. Criticizing one religion or another doesn't do much; I like to think that the vast majority of practicing Muslims, like most majorities, consists of liberal, modern people. As the millennial generation grows up, so does undoing the strictness and makes each culture less of a closed society and more of an open, welcoming community. 

 

Exactly what Kim said about secular views. He said all I really needed to say about it.

 

Criticizing religion does do something. It's like saying criticizing racism or homophobia would do absolutely nothing. In our own lifetimes we have seen a black man become president and legalized gay marriage. The discussion needs to start and people need to stop treating Islam like it's Voldemort (he who shall not be named). There is a lot wrong in the Book of Quaran. It is brutal with it's vile anti-semitism, the rhetoric of violence against infidels, polytheists and non-believers. This needs to be criticized by Muslims and the like. The bible was no different.

[trav 6834]

72%? A whopping 720,000,000 Muslims were surveryed saying that?

 

I got the stat wrong (see the edit or see below). It was 78% of British Muslims. Also surely you must know how a survey works.

 

 

" 78% of British Muslims are deeply offended by the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo -- I think that is saying something about the beliefs of Muslims and freedom of speech. Don't forget this poll was done on a western (modern) group of people.

 

http://www.comres.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/BBC-Today-Programme_British-Muslims-Poll_FINAL-Tables_Feb2015.pdf "

[Swed 2651]

If you believe that Islam has nothing to do with ISIS, you are willfully ignorant to the problem at hand. Until muslims are in the streets protesting ISIS en masse, the idea that a majority of muslims in someway agree with ISIS's ideology holds true. King Abdullah II of Jordan denouncing them is a great first step.

 

Narwhals, you see the steam but fail to acknowledge the boiling water right beneath it.

[Jodas 1542]

Narwhals - I'm on my phone at the moment but just to throw a stat out there for you. 78% of British Muslims are deeply offended by the cartoonists of Charlie Hebdo -- I think that is saying something about the beliefs of Muslims and freedom of speech. Don't forget this poll was done on a western (modern) group of people.

I don´t really get where you trying to go with this. Where is the problem with beeing offended by something? 

 

For example I am from East Frisia that is a small region in the north of germany. And there are also jokes about us and some kind of cartoons and I guess round about 50-60%% are deeply offended by this (I am also offended by it). We also have a radio channel in Lower Saxony that was making jokes about us East Frisians, it even got so far that one guy went in front of a court because he said that they are discrimnating a minority.  

 

In my opinion this is kind of the same with the cartoons of charlie hebdo they are satire okay, but also discrimination. And discrimination shouldn´t be tolerated, it isn´t freedom of speech to discrimnate a religon or a minority. 

 

Fun fact 9/10 people have no problem with bullying.

[trav 6834]

I don´t really get where you trying to go with this. Where is the problem with beeing offended by something? 

 

For example I am from East Frisia that is a small region in the north of germany. And there are also jokes about us and some kind of cartoons and I guess round about 50-60%% are deeply offended by this (I am also offended by it). We also have a radio channel in Lower Saxony that was making jokes about us East Frisians, it even got so far that one guy went in front of a court because he said that they are discrimnating a minority.  

 

In my opinion this is kind of the same with the cartoons of charlie hebdo they are satire okay, but also discrimination. And discrimination shouldn´t be tolerated, it isn´t freedom of speech to discrimnate a religon or a minority. 

 

Fun fact 9/10 people have no problem with bullying.

 

I agree with you on discrimination. But Charlie Hebdo also mocked Christianity as well.

http://all-that-is-interesting.com/controversial-charlie-hebdo-covers

 

However to call the "vast majority of Muslims liberal" is a little misleading when 78% from a western country believe that he shouldn't even be illustrated. Even Narwhals who is a younger generation Muslim believed they deserved punishment for it. I wouldn't exactly call that being liberal in the true sense of the word - i.e. believing in freedom of speech.

[Dr. NarwhalsNumbNuts IV 2291]

This is probably the most elegant, polite discussion I've ever had regarding this topic. I'm impressed by the respect, thank you all for the civility. 

 

 

Just thought I'd slip that in there.

 

Trav: However to call the "vast majority of Muslims liberal" is a little misleading when 78% from a western country believe that he shouldn't even be illustrated. Even Narwhals who is a younger generation Muslim believed they deserved punishment for it. I wouldn't exactly call that being liberal in the true sense of the word - i.e. believing in freedom of speech.

 

 

Being liberal and thinking someone deserves punishment isn't a contradiction. Purposefully doing the one thing that they know would light a fire on their collective ass is never right. At University of Mizzou, a wave of protests exploded, one reason for that is a fecal matter swastika plastered on a Jewish house. The parties involved should - and will - be punished. Never through violence, mind you, but nonetheless. Freedom of speech is a natural right, not just one of the USA's. However, that freedom does not permit one to scream FIRE in a crowded theater, which would cause mayhem and panic. Same principle applies here.

 

Swed: If you believe that Islam has nothing to do with ISIS, you are willfully ignorant to the problem at hand. Until muslims are in the streets protesting ISIS en masse, the idea that a majority of muslims in someway agree with ISIS's ideology holds true. King Abdullah II of Jordan denouncing them is a great first step.

 

Muslims have been protesting ISIS en masse. I know in any rally here in the states, young and old Muslims alike protest, along with the whites, the blacks, and other groups. The issue here isn't the World vs Islam; It's the World vs ISIS. If I'm not mistaken, King Abdullah II of Jordan already condemned them when ISIS trapped a Jordanian Air Force pilot in a cage, lit him on fire, and posted it on the internet the next day. The following days, the king commanded bombing raids that continue to today. 

 

 

I know I could have used the quote button but I already posted without using it here, and then found your responses. Forgive the odd structure.

[trav 6834]

Trav: However to call the "vast majority of Muslims liberal" is a little misleading when 78% from a western country believe that he shouldn't even be illustrated. Even Narwhals who is a younger generation Muslim believed they deserved punishment for it. I wouldn't exactly call that being liberal in the true sense of the word - i.e. believing in freedom of speech.

 

Being liberal and thinking someone deserves punishment isn't a contradiction. Purposefully doing the one thing that they know would light a fire on their collective ass is never right. At University of Mizzou, a wave of protests exploded, one reason for that is a fecal matter swastika plastered on a Jewish house. The parties involved should - and will - be punished. Never through violence, mind you, but nonetheless. Freedom of speech is a natural right, not just one of the USA's. However, that freedom does not permit one to scream FIRE in a crowded theater, which would cause mayhem and panic. Same principle applies here.

 

This is where I disagree with you. The satire of Charlie Hebdo is not the same as yelling fire in a crowded room/building. Sure they knew it would spark something and arguably that's what they like to do. Their comics are very political and are meant to spark controversy and conversation. That doesn't mean they should never illustrate the Prophet Muhammad because it might spark a fire in the Muslim community. It's their right to say what they want on the topic just as it is for you have yours.

 

Fecal matter on someone's personal property is against the law, so no shit (pardon the pun) they're getting punished.

 

Islamists need to be more tolerant of satire and freedom of speech. That discussion and criticism between Muslims needs to begin for any change to happen in that regard.

 

 

ISIS aren't just extremists, they are specifically Islamic extremists. And for some reason, people are denying that (not only Muslims). Everyone needs to admit this so Muslims aren't painted with single brush like you've mentioned earlier. Then hopefully some sort of reform towards the Islamic belief within the religion can happen so ISIS as well as other terrorist organizations are no longer a part of it. The problem isn't Islam itself sure, but there is a problem with some of the Islamist ideology. It's not perfect but what religion is.

 

 

Here's a quote from Sam Harris that I think people need to think about:

 

"If your free exercise of your religion requires that I follow its precepts, that is not freedom of religion; that is theocracy."

[Swed 2651]

Muslims have been protesting ISIS en masse. I know in any rally here in the states, young and old Muslims alike protest, along with the whites, the blacks, and other groups. The issue here isn't the World vs Islam; It's the World vs ISIS. If I'm not mistaken, King Abdullah II of Jordan already condemned them when ISIS trapped a Jordanian Air Force pilot in a cage, lit him on fire, and posted it on the internet the next day. The following days, the king commanded bombing raids that continue to today.

 

How about in the middle east, where ISIS is situated and bases not only their operations and headquarters, but their recruitment camps? I understand that some of the ISIS fighters are captured combatants forced to fight against their will(77 of which were executed today for refusing to fight), but what matters most is the Muslims actually located where the fighting is going on.

 

If ISIS loses favorable support among their own people(which will be very hard, if not impossible to do in a political way, and will more likely occur if they fail to complete their "religious mission" in the eyes of the people, and, in religious logic, not be in Allah's favor. This still leaves the problem of the mindset of the people supporting or participating in ISIS, but if we can remove them from power, we atl east have a chance to change religious thinking from violence against infidels to one of tolerance and acceptance) This is my personal analysis following a report that ISIS lost a city they preached would be important to their religious ascension and conquering of the world.

 

I'd also like your take on the top comment from an askreddit thread tagged serious, posed towards actively practicing Muslims:

 

 

Decided to make an account to reply to this.

Honestly, I feel anger towards my own people. I grew up in the middle east, at a young age I was exposed to the Bullshit ideologies that exist within middle eastern society.

People out there don't care enough to get up and do something about their withering homes, their lack of funded education, the rise in crime etc. Instead they blame these things on the west, and more specifically Israel.

The guy that chose not to go to college when he had the chance to do so suddenly finds him in the shitty part of town, with 7 kids and drives a cab all day. But when asked why he doesn't do anything he'll puff up his chest, square his shoulders and confidently say something along the lines of "it's America and Israel that fucked us, we Arabs are proud and our time will come".

The thing that I was exposed to as a child wasn't religious extremism, it was social elitism. As an Arab myself I can tell you that a huge majority of Arabs living in the middle east sincerely believe that if you're not one of them then you're a level below them. I absolutely hate it when apologist Muslims come out of the woods every time a tragic event like this occurs and say "but not all muslims".

If you live in the middle east and deny what I just said you're only lying to yourself. It's a majority of people who have this stupid point of view, and it's easy to warp their reality into picking up a gun and shooting innocents, or convincing them into suicide bombing themselves in a crowd or bus. When you have a bunch of people who honestly believe they're better than everyone else, you can make them do whatever the hell you want. Why else would people go willingly join terror organizations?

I mean for fucks sake, we don't even like eachother. Jordanians, Lebanese, saudis, Iraqis etc etc all hate eachother. And within our own countries we hate eachother and do nothing but show off our blood lines. "I'm from this family, I have more right than you" type mentality actually exists in this day and age.

I honestly don't blame anyone for thinking negatively of muslims, a lot of people I've met in the state I currently live in have never met a muslim, I can't blame them for thinking that we're all violent idiots.

I'm sorry for ranting, I'm on my phone so the formatting might be terrible. It just makes my blood boil every time I hear about tragic events like this being caused in the name of religion.

[BananaPeelz 709]

An example in line with Trav's point about Charlie Hebdo is that of Salman Rushdie, who had a call for assassination made against him by Ayatollah Khomeini for his book.

[Dr. NarwhalsNumbNuts IV 2291]

How about in the middle east, where ISIS is situated and bases not only their operations and headquarters, but their recruitment camps? I understand that some of the ISIS fighters are captured combatants forced to fight against their will(77 of which were executed today for refusing to fight), but what matters most is the Muslims actually located where the fighting is going on.

If ISIS loses favorable support among their own people(which will be very hard, if not impossible to do in a political way, and will more likely occur if they fail to complete their "religious mission" in the eyes of the people, and, in religious logic, not be in Allah's favor. This still leaves the problem of the mindset of the people supporting or participating in ISIS, but if we can remove them from power, we atl east have a chance to change religious thinking from violence against infidels to one of tolerance and acceptance) This is my personal analysis following a report that ISIS lost a city they preached would be important to their religious ascension and conquering of the world.

I'd also like your take on the top comment from an askreddit thread tagged serious, posed towards actively practicing Muslims:

What does it matter where the protests by Muslims occur? Only a sliver of the world's Muslim population exists in the Middle East.

I'll come back to reply to that reddit post. I'm currently not at home and it's gonna a bitch formatting a coherent thought when I can't read 70% of the post.

Sent from my LG-H815 using Tapatalk

[centran 4457]

tl;dr - People who practice Islam cherry pick their beliefs and what they follow more then any other religion. This makes interactions difficult and frustrating with worrying about what will be offensive(even basic social interactions like handshaking)

 

One big annoyance with Islam with me is the vast cherry picking of what they choose to follow. This happens in other religions but I don't feel it is as to as great an extent. You can generally tell with Jewish or Christian an area they fall in and what they believe and what insults them and how to respect them and all that. With Islam it is so vast it is hard to know what will offend and what will not.

I'll take an example from a recent article of a Muslim women in the workplace. With some groups she couldn't work because she can't be outside the house without escort of a male family member. Some groups she could go out with a group of females and only females. Now that is not the issue in this case cause her family weren't that strict. However she was in a work environment where handshaking is customary. However her family choose to follow the rule where you can't make contact with a male not in your family. Trying to shake her hand is offensive and disrespectfully.

 

One of these other rules some followers of Islam choose is making eye contact with a female. There are many Muslims in my neighborhood and I have to figure out if it is OK to say hello and make eye contact around the neighborhood??? Furthermore I may have a female neighbor that doesn't practice those rules as strictly as her husband so if I make friendly conversation when he is not home but say hello and make eye contact with her when they are together I disrespected him and endanger her when they are alone.

Now here is why I think groups like ISIS are a problem. You take someone who doesn't strictly practice Judaism and put them with orthodox Jews and they may try to respect their beliefs while there but they are going to think fuck those guys I want to play video games Friday night. Now you take a similar separation with Islam and I find they pretty much just fall in line. They go with the flow and when you are dealing with the extreme rules/laws of groups like ISIS is not OK.

Now I'm not saying the ones who barely practice Islam would just turn extremist but I think those on the edge do as it is just they culture to do so. That is what I think the big problem is. ISIS takes over a town where they are like... We don't want to follow this strictly but you are Islam too so I guess we will just follow along.

I could be completely wrong and I know they pretty much hold their own people hostage and kill any opposition but there has to be some willingness or not giving a fuck that is part of it.

[trav 6834]

Interesting article from a guy who was held hostage by ISIS for 10 months

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-bombs-hostage-syria-islamic-state-paris-attacks?CMP=share_btn_tw

[centran 4457]

Interesting article from a guy who was held hostage by ISIS for 10 months

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/16/isis-bombs-hostage-syria-islamic-state-paris-attacks?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

Interesting article. I think he has some things right and other wrong.

 

He said they took him for mock beheadings and thought it was just them playing around. We knew they did these tactics and I don't think it is cause they are stupid or dumb... maybe the ones doing it are dumb but the reason is they don't want the hostages knowing when their time will come. They want them always second guessing. Also they are good at "sleeper" tactics. They don't want to just behead everyone when they have a foreigner. They wait for an opportunity. However, what he had to say about their mentality and beliefs is very interesting.

 

He said they picked Paris because they feel it is a weak link. He may be on to something there. There has always been social and civil problems in France. Also there are supposedly no-go zones in some towns in France where there is a strong Islam community who follow strict Sharia Law. The media denies it. My friend who lived in the UK says that it is true and there are some areas you do not go to at all and even the police try to avoid if they can. So it is no surprise they would do this in Paris when they have towns in France sympathetic to them or more willing to lean to the extremists side. 

 

One thing I think he is wrong is going after the Syrian president. There might be other political back dealings some countries have going on that they don't want to do that but it is obvious from a historical stand point. You create a power vacuum in these regions and what forms and comes out of it is worse then what was there.

[ChosenOne2000 4440]

State department just listed Paris as a restricted location for American servicemen.

[The Impenetrable Wall 31]

UPDATE: France drops 20 bombs on Raaqas

[ChosenOne2000 4440]

UPDATE: France drops 20 bombs on Raaqas

In America, we call that a Tuesday.

[Faded 266]

In America, we call that a Tuesday morning.

Fixed

[trav 6834]

State department just listed Paris as a restricted location for Americans.

I thought that was just for military personnel

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/630178/eucom-implements-travel-restrictions-to-france.aspx

Do you have any more info?

[ChosenOne2000 4440]

I thought that was just for military personnel

http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/630178/eucom-implements-travel-restrictions-to-france.aspx

Do you have any more info?

You're correct. I mistyped.

[centran 4457]

Now a bunch of US states are saying they are going to illegally go against a presidential order and refuse Syrian migrants. I get their concern but here is my thought... lets say 100% that ISIS agents will get into the US with he migrants. Why the fuck are we not figuring out who those people are, letting them come in anyway, keep tabs on them just in case they do something suddenly but slowly work them over and flip them? This is shit the CIA used to do all the time and was damn good at it. When did they become so crappy at their job and turning assets and gaining CIs? Even if they are un-flippable they sure as hell can spy on them and get a lot of information and when they make their move stop them beforehand.

[trav 6834]

[Sean 3760]

This whole discussion is ridiculous in my opinion.

 

I don't even want to go into detail because it'll spark more controversy.

[Jodas 1542]

Meanwhile in germany:

[trav 6834]

This whole discussion is ridiculous in my opinion.

I don't even want to go into detail because it'll spark more controversy.

Let's hear it. Bring me something exciting and worthwhile on these forums please. Spice it up a bit rather than the usual 13 year old bullshit spam.