Behos 103 Posted January 18, 2014 Hi. Please do something or take a stance, don't derail this because this is something that needs to be addressed 1 1 Wintergreen and Vexium reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fontaine 1744 Posted January 18, 2014 Please do something or take a stance, don't derail this because this is something that needs to be addressed<br /><br />I'm sorry. I believe I posted in the wrong thread. I was trying to respond to an Introduction thread but must have clicked the wrong thread on my phone app. Didn't mean to derail the conversation. But after reading what this is about, I agree. You should not be able to shoot behind something when the barrel model is unable to be targeted. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sketchmaticx 3170 Posted January 18, 2014 <br /><br />I'm sorry. I believe I posted in the wrong thread. I was trying to respond to an Introduction thread but must have clicked the wrong thread on my phone app. Didn't mean to derail the conversation. But after reading what this is about, I agree. You should not be able to shoot behind something when the barrel model is unable to be targeted.you can still shoot the guy ill test it tomorrow tho 1 Wintergreen reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Behos 103 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) you can still shoot the guy ill test it tomorrow tho Test it with me, I want to be there EDIT: Nevermind, tested it on 2 different instances, you cannot headshot the player model of the Trickster Assassin, rendering him completely untargetable behind ledges. Edited January 18, 2014 by Lemon Chan 1 1 Wintergreen and Vexium reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SneakyB 6 Posted January 18, 2014 I'm not quite sure where you wanted to go with this or if you took a bong hit before finishing it but I would really like you to take a clear stance on the issue I haven't attacked you, so thats uncalled for. If you'd like a more formal approach, then so be it. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill, people who do play trickster assassin may use this every once in a while but this would happen even on accident as well. They'd run up the ramp on dust, proceed to shoot the player and by doing so they are breaking the rules simply because they aren't aware that their playermodel is tall enough to be seen by the opposing guy. Would this also disallow you to hide behind your own barrels if you hide yourself in a corner? What happens when you're trying to evade someone and run behind a crate? There is no feasible way to enforce this, nor is there a reasonable way to check yourself without spawning a barrel to check the comparative heights. Different maps also have different barrel models. Are you saying that in order to play this race, a new player who may have never played on that map would have to "relearn" the new height of the models? That is absurd. It is unnecessary. There are too many locations on every map that the race would be unable to utilize simply because of the new rule. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Behos 103 Posted January 18, 2014 I haven't attacked you, so thats uncalled for. If you'd like a more formal approach, then so be it. You haven't made your point clear. They'd run up the ramp on dust, proceed to shoot the player and by doing so they are breaking the rules simply because they aren't aware that their playermodel is tall enough to be seen by the opposing guy. They would be aware of the height of the player skin and so would avoid such situations. Besides, if it's on accident, a warning or even a frown would be enough, what we're trying to stop here is exploiting such a mechanic. Would this also disallow you to hide behind your own barrels if you hide yourself in a corner? No, because you can shoot the barrels down. We've already addressed that point and you would know if you read the thread. What happens when you're trying to evade someone and run behind a crate? Don't shoot from behind it. There is no feasible way to enforce this, nor is there a reasonable way to check yourself without spawning a barrel to check the comparative heights. There is, it's up to the player's discretion at first and if he doesn't realize, then it's up to the admin, or even the victim himself who was cheated of a death. It's not rocket science; you are smaller than normal. Different maps also have different barrel models. That isn't true as far as I know, it has always been the grey or red oil barrel for me, which are both of the same size. There are too many locations on every map that the race would be unable to utilize simply because of the new rule. The player would be aware with this rule, it should be fine, those locations aren't supossed to be used by the race in the first place. If anything, you are blowing this out of proportions, there wouldn't be any bans following this unless the player is obviously trying to infringe the rules multiple times even after warnings. 1 1 Wintergreen and Vexium reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rayne 4478 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) I think this has gone a bit too far, from reading the entire thread quite thoroughly I have to change my stance. It is impossible to enforce this as a rule based on an extremely good counter arguement. Dust2 ramp, accidentally going behind an object higher than you... You can never be certain whether the player is even aware they are hidden.I think it's just got to be accepted as an annoyance in the race, I've never struggled handling a trickster and I've never been unstoppable as one. Lemon, you're arguement was brilliant, but it's not worth it. It's fine as is, and bare able, you know it pal. Edited January 18, 2014 by Rayne Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Vexium 35 Posted January 18, 2014 (edited) Lemon, in this thread, all you have effectively done is alienate a fourth of the war3 playerbase from you. You're a douche, buddy. You're asking players to not shoot from behind cover. In theory, it makes loose sense. In practice, it doesn't gel. Players will be moving from cover to cover if need be. you seriously expect them not to shoot while behind that cover? As any class, that should be unrestricted. If a player is blatantly camping the same location with trickster, over and over again, to abuse the height angle, I can see it being frustrating and worth asking an admin to step in, but it is so easy to deal with that that I don't understand where you're coming from. You know where he's going to be. It's not hard to counter. Anyway, you've lost my respect. You're a real dickwad, and I'm glad you don't act like this in-game. You need to learn some fucking manners, kid. Edited January 18, 2014 by Vexium Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rootbeer 1293 Posted January 18, 2014 After more thoughts and reading more opinions, I've been swayed to change my stance yet again on this subject. The problem with this is some people aren't necessarily abusing the fact that this race has low hitboxes, they're just simply using cover for what it is -- cover. Who in their right minds would run out in the open and start shooting? Unless you have some sort of invincibility, you won't be. Any smart person would run for and shoot behind cover. Unfortunately, doing so brings the point of this thread into play and ruling it illegal is a loss-loss situation. People won't want to be restricted from playing smart -- in the de_dust situation, would you really not hug the wall/hide behind the crate on any other race? In the special cases where the barrel is hidden from view, we'd encourage playing dumb by rambo'ing in the open if you wanted to push forward, and from the general consensus of replies, any admin will not want enforce this rule yet they'd be forced to in the event of someone complaining. I'm not saying this was a bad idea, it's just really hard to enforce this without having a negative effect for playing the race. My suggestion for a fix: get a taller barrel model. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Behos 103 Posted January 18, 2014 Lemon, in this thread, all you have effectively done is alienate a fourth of the war3 playerbase from you. You're a douche, buddy. So new, so innocent, did I hurt your precious feelings? Once again, people are misinterpreting my argument and I'm done for now, you aren't going to run out in the open, you are going to be using your skills and hide amongst the barrels already in the map or spawn ones yourself. You will just be asked to avoid such situations where your model would be hidden from sight and untargetable. There would be warnings, but nothing too serious if the player is obviously not doing it on purpose. I'm tired of repeating myself. It doesn't matter if it's easy to counter for certain races, not everyone has the mobility advantage, and if they are camping a site, then you're unfairly at a disadvantage by abuse of a mechanic, and that's what this rule should be based on, just like shooting from an unreachable place as a skywalker, on top of a bomb site. They are objectives to capture, even if you're not going there, you shouldn't be ruled of that possibility because some asshole is abusing an exploit. any admin will not want enforce this rule yet they'd be forced to in the event of someone complaining. Serious? It's their job, do SOs really do anything else anyway? get a taller barrel model. If it's taller, then you don't fit in with the barrels, it ruins the race. Every other argument against this has been fallacious and in general not agreed on because of their own lazyness, some wanting to protect their precious race from being "nerfed" when it's obviously in need of a change. 1 1 Wintergreen and Vexium reacted to this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rootbeer 1293 Posted January 18, 2014 Serious? It's their job, do SOs really do anything else anyway?To bring a real life example of this: there are many laws that police officers can enforce if they were really in the mood to but usually don't because they feel it's unfair -- whether it's the rule or the punishment that is unfair. If it's taller, then you don't fit in with the barrels, it ruins the race. Not if those barrels are taller too~. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Behos 103 Posted January 18, 2014 Not if those barrels are taller too~. I don't think it's possible to change all the different models of all the different barrels in all of the maps. A weakness of the class itself that should be addressed is it being able to camouflage within the barrels of the map itself instead of standing out. To bring a real life example of this: there are many laws that police officers can enforce if they were really in the mood to but usually don't because they feel it's unfair -- whether it's the rule or the punishment that is unfair. But it would be in the rules and they would have to, even if they don't agree with it (in this situation, allowing people to freely exploit the player's model sounds silly) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
B-cock #1 641 Posted January 18, 2014 I look at is the same as the invisible players that are completely invisible behind certain textures, they may not know they are 100% invisible (I think of dust 2 B chokepoint behind the boxes). It was decided that it is not really enforcable as the player may not know they are completely invis at all. I mean, it sucks, but it's really not that big of a deal. Overall, this is too hard to enforce. If an admin brings something up to them about standing of some stairs/ramp/whatever, the player may never know what's safe to use. They would have to restrict them from inclines pretty much, which is retarded. TL;DR Fuck you Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites