Ok. I have a question.

[Audiovox 6]

If people keep leaving and dropping out for bs reasons, who the fuck will I have to work for? What I'm saying is the clan and community are the reason I used to try so hard to improve the servers and game play, but at this rate by the time I come back there will be no one left to make stuff for and have fun with! STOP IT DAMMIT! Idc if you don't play CSS or games in general anymore, I don't even care if you say you will not be on the forums, just don't give me stupid excuses for leaving and that general behavior. I know I'm not the only one that feels as though there is an air of death over UV right now and all this negative thinking and these actions are not helping. Once again I also feel the over reacting thing coming on, but it's pissing me off. And no Zan this is not directed at you, but you were the kick off for it. It's school time again and things are getting stale, that was expected before we got off summer vacation, we have discussed this before. Just because it starts looking dull or you don't have the time/interest for the clan doesn't mean you shouldn't stick around and just lurk for a month or two to see what happens, playing extremes will get us no where but failure.

Stop leaving, just take a break or go afk, w/e, just don't leave on a whim or for reasons that don't make sense.</div></span>

-Audio

[projectmayhem9 8]

/gquit

[UltimateOreo 145]

It's a stressful and busy time, time is crunching, but that doesn't mean that you have to quit. My activity is at a minimal right now, but I am staying because I know my workload will become less and I can still help out.

[Audiovox 6]

Look, this is serious for me because if I am to get back into all this crap, I need to at least know there is a reason for it.

Do not troll my topic, I will not tolerate it.

As I sit here working on Blood Gulch, I question if I should continue what I started so long ago mostly cause if I leave UV, it will be the end of my CSS play for the most part and I will move on to other things. Am I wasting my time? Have I wasted all the time I've put into the clan in times past? Give me and the clan the respect of at least not turning this into yet another lame ass joke that will result in more half finished shit.

-Audio

EDIT: Exactly Oreo, as is my situation. However you don't see either of us just dropping out eh? That's the cheap way to go imo

[S3Xmagik 0]

You're not wasting your time Audio. There are people in this clan who notice how much you put into it and respect you for it. It's a tough time of the year, people are drowning in workloads and others are moving on, but the community is still here. Sure, we've got our share of issues right now, but we can get past that.

EDIT - Fuck it, I'm doing the same damn thing. I can't play css, I can't even use freakin Xfire. But I'm still doing my best to stay active in this community and help out wherever I can. I don't see why I shouldn't expect as much from everbody else who wants to be part of this community.

[Zan 14]

Me not playing CSS was not the only reason for me leaving. It's just the one that I gave.

[Audiovox 6]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zan @ Nov 11 2008, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Me not playing CSS was not the only reason for me leaving. It's just the one that I gave.

I'm aware of this, or at least that's the feeling I was getting when I read the post. That's why I didn't direct this at any one person, if it's private that's your business, but in order to deter future things like this from happening, you made a perfect example. Though, I still am at odds with it personally just because no other explanation has been offered up. Then we run into the whole personal business thing again, so I suppose it will have to do.

-Audio

EDIT: Btw, it's not so much that you are leaving if it something serious, it's more that you say you will remain around and still post and help out. If that is the case, then why leave the clan in the first place?

[Zan 14]

The main reason I am leaving is because I was told a while back that I would not become a ADV or JCS because of my age. I don't think age should really matter, maturity should. I was extremely active up until this point, I played every day and I played all day on the servers and site. I have since stopped playing CSS. Not to sound conceded, but without something to "strive" for in this community, I feel like I am unneeded and sort of unwanted, I offered numerous times to help with tons of tasks and was always told no.

Edit-I've seen people come into the clan and in less that 4 months are awarded with a position. Of course, they are older than me, but they havent done anything to help out the community, much less offer. Audio I think should have gotten JCS because of the amount of help he did/does. Positions should be handed out by willingness to help and for those who have helped, not for those who suck up.

[Audiovox 6]

It's not so much the positions that I used to seek, more the access they granted from a developers point of view. Free admin on the servers is necessary if I am to do work and actually test it in a real situation and debug/trouble shoot (think about it, why the hell would I buy admin just to do work on your servers?!? certain things are just required for practicality's sake, get real). Generally, I do not have enough time due to developing to even use the admin for much else aside from the rather frequent complaints I used to get about hackers/idiots. So it's not much in terms of "reward", the reward came from the community and the success of my work, which has been gone for a long time. And that's why there's no real drive for me to do stuff anymore. It's rather degrading to read these things on the forums and always think "You fail, but thanks for trying." because I know damn well I am more capable than that as is the community. There seems to be a predisposed mental state about anything new around here based off our past happenings. It's all gonna suck and fail. And as long as we think that way, it will. (I'VE SAID ALL THIS BEFORE) We are more than capable of doing great things, but we seem to forget that part of our past and only remember the bad things.

-Audio

[Neur0 34]

I don't get it either. I don't understand why people leave all the time. You can still be a part of the clan despite decreased activity. I don't plan on leaving for a very long time.

[Comp 0]

I won't be going anywhere, this community is enjoyable...even if my activity on the servers is nonexistent during the break I'll be back on ZM1 and ZM2 (if it ever gets populated) and play. This lowly peon appreciates your work Audio, thanks for all the effort!

[Neur0 34]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Comp @ Nov 11 2008, 09:34 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I won't be going anywhere, this community is enjoyable...even if my activity on the servers is nonexistent during the break I'll be back on ZM1 and ZM2 (if it ever gets populated) and play. This lowly peon appreciates your work Audio, thanks for all the effort!

I most certainly agree!

[Zan 14]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (When in doubt whip it out @ Nov 11 2008, 08:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

I most certainly agree!

Ditto

[Audiovox 6]

While I do appreciate the thanks, it's rather empty for me because I feel as though there is nothing to thank me for. None of what I've done has really come to pass and much less has it actually turned out well liked and accepted. It's kinda like building a car, but then not having any gas to make the car useful, or some jack ass cut the brake line and it ends up killing everyone inside, or we forgot to put wheels on it. It was a good concept, it just sucks lol

-Audio

[Zan 14]

Atleast you tried - Thats all that counts.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>

It's Better to Try and Fail Than to Have Never Tried At All

[Comp 0]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Audiovox @ Nov 11 2008, 10:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

While I do appreciate the thanks, it's rather empty for me because I feel as though there is nothing to thank me for. None of what I've done has really come to pass and much less has it actually turned out well liked and accepted. It's kinda like building a car, but then not having any gas to make the car useful, or some jack ass cut the brake line and it ends up killing everyone inside, or we forgot to put wheels on it. It was a good concept, it just sucks lol

-Audio

Didn't you create ZM1's propmenu? While most people agree there are things that need to be changed...others wouldn't play without it, and defended it with a lot of enthusiasm when ZM1 almost became vanilla completely. There are plenty of people who enjoy your work, like you said up top, it's just a low point right now for the population.

Of course someone else could've created the propmenu and I could be completely failing with this post...but it's a risk I'm willing to take!

[Audiovox 6]

Na, it's mine. I do realize that many people enjoy it, but the amount animosity I've seen from clan members on the forums and the way the zm server fell apart after we started messing with it is where I get these thoughts from. In all seriousness, there is a great deal of uncalled for douche baggary that many of the older clan members displayed when propmenu was incorporated, and that alone set a stale view on propmenu because they were the old regulars of zm. There was no middle ground, no way to improve upon the situation other than a complete reformation and eradication of propmenu, which didn't sit well with the newer players that liked propmenu. It's that kind of unwilling and illogical thinking that made it so hard to do anything good afterward with it. So to all you that where so one sided and unwilling to compromise for the greater good, I'd like to thank you for the current situation ^^ and what happened to the end all solution of having a vanilla zm server along with propmenu? I'm aware of the current host issues, but to my knowledge, the vanilla server pretty much failed.

-Audio

[Zan 14]

I have to say, I never really liked some of the things the propmenu could do. It destroyed(Spelling) old fashion cades. You can now just blow them away.

[Audiovox 6]

Agreed, there where many things that I disliked about it, but that went back to the whole trying to do things for the greater good. Selfish assholes messed it all up imo

-Audio

[UltimateOreo 145]

Asking to become a staff member because of pure activity would be ignorant. It has to do with your ability to control situations, your maturity, willingness to help, coherence, and management skills. Being a staff member is not a privilege, it's a responsibility.

[Zan 14]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UltimateOreo @ Nov 11 2008, 09:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Asking to become a staff member because of pure activity would be ignorant. It has to do with your ability to control situations, your maturity, willingness to help, coherence, and management skills. Being a staff member is not a privilege, it's a responsibility.

tl:dr Doesnt count.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Audiovox @ Nov 11 2008, 08:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

He's not saying he joined for rewards in that sense, he's saying that after a while, certain things are just a given. It is understood that in order to become JCS or ADV, you must show certain traits and behaviors, so saying that TRYING for a better spot is not the way to go doesn't make logical sense. If you don't try you will never achieve. He is also saying that he disagrees with one of the guide lines for JCS/ADV positions being taken into account AND he provides a good reason why he feels as such in his case. Saying the trust/loyalty thing will not work here either I don't believe, Zan has been around longer than me I think and I've never known him to start shit or do untrustworthy things, aside from messing with Oreo.

-Audio

EDIT: In light of your newly revised post, I will add on a bit more. Kelso displayed many traits I would deem untrustworthy in his posts about his life situations and such, and I believe that was why he was removed from ADV in the first place, aside from inactivity. All I'm saying is many of the excuses I've seen used simply will not work for all cases. This one will take some thought. Or I can do that for you as well. *does it* The reason Zan was not given another position is because he was leader of the Mapping squad. This was thought to satisfy him and he did not display any reason to think otherwise, so nothing more was said about it. Also, though he shows all the right stuff for it, there is a limited amount of spots available, within reason, and he already held one that was fairly high up in the chain. So, he did not come up as a logical option for advancement to JCS or ADV, I doubt it was even considered. Thus is the folly of being on the developing side of the clan, you are overlooked a lot and privileges are handed out so sparingly you don't want to ask because the rest of the clan makes you feel bad for having what little "benefits" you have already. "Oh, you want to help ME out eh? Well, you will have to suck my dick before I'll let you help me." That may be a bit extreme, but it mostly encompasses the idea.

I thought this might go well with the conversation that is going on here.

[Comp 0]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Audiovox @ Nov 11 2008, 11:02 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Na, it's mine. I do realize that many people enjoy it, but the amount animosity I've seen from clan members on the forums and the way the zm server fell apart after we started messing with it is where I get these thoughts from. In all seriousness, there is a great deal of uncalled for douche baggary that many of the older clan members displayed when propmenu was incorporated, and that alone set a stale view on propmenu because they were the old regulars of zm. There was no middle ground, no way to improve upon the situation other than a complete reformation and eradication of propmenu, which didn't sit well with the newer players that liked propmenu. It's that kind of unwilling and illogical thinking that made it so hard to do anything good afterward with it. So to all you that where so one sided and unwilling to compromise for the greater good, I'd like to thank you for the current situation ^^ and what happened to the end all solution of having a vanilla zm server along with propmenu? I'm aware of the current host issues, but to my knowledge, the vanilla server pretty much failed.

-Audio

Well...you've been here a lot longer than me, so I'm sure you know more than me how much this forum loves drama. You said it yourself...people wanted vanilla, people got vanilla, vanilla is now empty pretty much all the time; however atrocity is still floating along with regulars and gets filled up once in a blue moon. Clearly the propmenu is what's making the ZM server work, even if some old members don't like it...that doesn't really matter now, they got what they wanted. You'll have loyal people even if they don't come on the forums and chat it up, your propmenu is much more appreciated than disliked. Admittedly I don't like the fact classic cading is nearly impossible...the propmenu makes it unique, there are more than enough classic ZM servers out there on CSS, and I enjoy more of the quirks the propmenu brings than the things it takes away from the game.

[projectmayhem9 8]

Kelso is actually quite trustworthy. I have told him many things and he has yet to break my trust. His life decisions may not show that, but I have found him to be a reliable individual and he was during his JCS and ADV positions as well.

[Audiovox 6]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (UltimateOreo @ Nov 11 2008, 10:10 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div>

Asking to become a staff member because of pure activity would be ignorant. It has to do with your ability to control situations, your maturity, willingness to help, coherence, and management skills. Being a staff member is not a privilege, it's a responsibility.

Exactly, that is why I never wanted an official position as a staff member. Engineer suits me fine, even though it is still technically a staff position, it's not in that context. As it was, I had more than enough on my hands with the servers n such, being JCS or ADV simply to have the powers to do the work needed was just silly. But as I said, I've never seen Zan display horrible behavior or give a strong reason not to be trusted. As far as the responsibility/privilege thing, that is a common misconception it seems, at least when we talk about admin and mod rights. However, I do see where it could be a privilege to be picked out of a group of people to perform a specific task and hold a responsibility.

-Audio

[UltimateOreo 145]

All I'm going to say is that not everybody is cut out to be a leader, and this is no different. I don't expect to become President of the United States, or a Supreme Court Justice because I've been a citizen of this country for my whole life. Even if Zan had the traits that we are looking for in a good leader, he didn't display them. He showed incentive to help, which made him a fantastic Mapping Squad Leader, but he did not show the traits that we look for when we look for potential staff members, which I included in my post above.

It's as simple as not everybody is cut out to be a leader. Being a leader is more of a burden than anything. I thought it would be pretty cool when I first started, but it's a lot of hard work and dedication. It is not given out as a gift, it's given out to the people who we think can handle and utilize their power for the best of the clan.

In Audio's situation, I'm extremely fortunate for all the work he has done for it, and if we could truly afford to pay him, I would. Just because he does all this work does not make him a good candidate for staff by default.