Same Sex Relationships

[Guest Fohacidal]

Simple question, just explain to me how disallowing two same sex couples to marry based on the religious tradition, as you said (I am assuming our is referring to Christian), is seperating church and state. Again, religions are in no way, in my mind, being asked to recognize such marriages, only the government itself.

Again, state governments decide to legalize gay marriages. With that said marriage has always been a religious institution, state is never involved in what the catholic or protestant churches do other then settle the legal matters of what a marriage is. Religiously marriage is always the union of a loving man and women, legally speaking its like a contract. However that contract can only be formed through marriage, something that has existed through religion, primarily christian religion, the first to institute actual marriage as the consenting union between a man and a woman.

Now where did I ever mention the separation of church and state? I didnt, I might have hinted towards it indirectly, but it was just a reference and never part of a point. Again lets go back to the Constitution, the first amendment states that we have the freedom FOR and FROM religion. Basically if a couple CHOOSES to marry, they want to ingage in the christian act of marriage, and seeing as its AGAINST our religion its imposing on our beliefs and rights. Nowhere does the constitution "guarantee you the right to impose on other religions and get married"

But godzilla, thank you for posting a coherent well thought argument that I can respond to in a proper manner.

[Contract Killer 24]

How did this go from gay marriage to religon debates.

I find it Ironic that it was an atheist that started the religious debates also.

[GodzillA 0]

If a church is willing to perform a same sex marriage, how is it not a violation of church and state separation for the government to interfere?

The government is not interfering, a religious marriage and a government marriage are two completely different things (although much of the time go hand in hand). If I am Catholic and I marry my girlfriend with my holy dude present, I get zero benefits from the state for taxs etc. If I am Catholic and I get a marriage liscense for my girlfriend and I, I am married by definition of the government, nothing to do with the Catholic Church I also get access to tax breaks etc.

[GodzillA 0]

state is never involved in what the catholic or protestant churches do other then settle the legal matters of what a marriage is.

That is EXACTLY my point. The state is the ultimate authority of who is married. ONLY the state determines if same sex couples or mixed gender races receive the same benefits. Therefor, ONLY the state needs to recognize the marriage. In no way is it forcing any religious authority to accept the marriage.

Nowhere does the constitution "guarantee you the right to impose on other religions and get married"

I 100% agree, I am in no way saying that X religion must marry Y and Z.

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

Again Im not answering you because you dont care to understand my post, you just read "no equal marriage rights" and you instantly believe I hate gay people. That and you dont seem to understand the constitution.

Am I the only one noticing here he only quotes and attacks me? I swear wherever I go he is attacking me. That and he keeps calling everyone "kids" as if he is some hotshot adult that knows everything about the world. Its this kinda of pure blatant ignorance that really ticks me off. Not only does he use serious repition in his arguments, his points are poorly represented and he only responds to posts on a clearly superficial and literal way.

IMO This is a troll...

See, this is right here why. You call everyone ignorant. Maybe if you weren't so god damn full of yourself you'd understand that. But no, you say the same god damn thing over and over again then get mad if someone does. HYPOCRITE. Also, I call everyone kids it's not because "I'm some hot shot adult" it's because people with your intelligence level is a fucking kid. The reason I quote you is because you still insult everyone, the other guy doesn't. He was saying close to the same thing, but you TWICE said something about being on different levels for gay and straights. I could care less for what, if they are on different levels, you are saying gays aren't as good. Because the gays don't get benefits like a straight couple would. By saying that gay's aren't as good as stright, yes I do take that personal. I have a relative that happens to be gay and it pisses me off when people think they are better. But of course, you can tell that you are mr king shit and decides who gets married and who doesn't.

Everyone bow down to major fucking jesus.

Again, state governments decide to legalize gay marriages. With that said marriage has always been a religious institution, state is never involved in what the catholic or protestant churches do other then settle the legal matters of what a marriage is. Religiously marriage is always the union of a loving man and women, legally speaking its like a contract. However that contract can only be formed through marriage, something that has existed through religion, primarily christian religion, the first to institute actual marriage as the consenting union between a man and a woman.

Now where did I ever mention the separation of church and state? I didnt, I might have hinted towards it indirectly, but it was just a reference and never part of a point. Again lets go back to the Constitution, the first amendment states that we have the freedom FOR and FROM religion. Basically if a couple CHOOSES to marry, they want to ingage in the christian act of marriage, and seeing as its AGAINST our religion its imposing on our beliefs and rights. Nowhere does the constitution "guarantee you the right to impose on other religions and get married"

But godzilla, thank you for posting a coherent well thought argument that I can respond to in a proper manner.

You say I'm repetitive? You said this exact thing with different words like 8 times.

But you ignore all of my questions for you.

Why does it bother you?

How does it hurt you that gays get married?

[Kelso 4]

I used to hate gays quite a bit, I still use lots of gay insulting words, but honestly, if I don't have to see it, be confronted with it, or have traffic blocked because of parades I really don't care. I wouldn't mind it so much if they didn't constantly have to let everyone know they're gay, but there's this odd part of them that just says, "LET'S LET EVERYONE KNOW LOL!". If they don't make a big deal and keep all hush hush about it people wouldn't hate it nearly as much and it would probably slide with society.

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

I used to hate gays quite a bit, I still use lots of gay insulting words, but honestly, if I don't have to see it, be confronted with it, or have traffic blocked because of parades I really don't care. I wouldn't mind it so much if they didn't constantly have to let everyone know they're gay, but there's this odd part of them that just says, "LET'S LET EVERYONE KNOW LOL!". If they don't make a big deal and keep all hush hush about it people wouldn't hate it nearly as much and it would probably slide with society.

Yeah that's true..

I don't think they really should have parades too..

I mean, it's kind of annoying but then again, if we just accepted them, maybe they wouldn't have to.

[Guest Fohacidal]

See, this is right here why. You call everyone ignorant. Maybe if you weren't so god damn full of yourself you'd understand that. But no, you say the same god damn thing over and over again then get mad if someone does. HYPOCRITE. Also, I call everyone kids it's not because "I'm some hot shot adult" it's because people with your intelligence level is a fucking kid. The reason I quote you is because you still insult everyone, the other guy doesn't. He was saying close to the same thing, but you TWICE said something about being on different levels for gay and straights. I could care less for what, if they are on different levels, you are saying gays aren't as good. Because the gays don't get benefits like a straight couple would. By saying that gay's aren't as good as stright, yes I do take that personal. I have a relative that happens to be gay and it pisses me off when people think they are better. But of course, you can tell that you are mr king shit and decides who gets married and who doesn't.

Everyone bow down to major fucking jesus.

You say I'm repetitive? You said this exact thing with different words like 8 times.

But you ignore all of my questions for you.

Why does it bother you?

How does it hurt you that gays get married?

Im not going to answer your questions because they are of completely subjective nature of which is NOT constructive to a debate as controversial as this one, not only that but it will open into other arguments, derail the thread and conclusively lower any chance of an intelligent discussion on topic of homosexuals in general.

This is the last post I ever write in response to you, I have tried to be patient yet you still troll on and think you are better then me. Well good sir I am officially calling "out" of any present and/or future argument with you because you are not worth the effort or time.

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

Im not going to answer your questions because they are of completely subjective nature of which is NOT constructive to a debate as controversial as this one, not only that but it will open into other arguments, derail the thread and conclusively lower any chance of an intelligent discussion on topic of homosexuals in general.

This is the last post I ever write in response to you, I have tried to be patient yet you still troll on and think you are better then me. Well good sir I am officially calling "out" of any present and/or future argument with you because you are not worth the effort or time.

You wanna know why, because you are bias. You won't look at anyone else opinions, you just look at your owns. Seriously, where do I even say that I was, you just don't like the fact that you don't like people calling you out for being hypocritical and rude. Calling everyone ignorant doesn't make you look anyone smarter. You won't answer any questions I have, you say that people don't post enough evidence - yet you post the same answers over and over again.

You should really look at what you say, then realized how big of a hypocrite you are. Obviously other people think so too, so it's not just me. Meaning it can't be everyone else, it's you.

[Neur0 34]

Atheism is true bliss. Let the people do as they please.

Likewise, Stupid Monkey, if you're going to attack someone's character and avoid the debate at hand, you might as well walk out the door. Both of you are bickering like old women. Try posting something with some actual content rather than measuring your dicks. It's getting old... fast.

[jombeeno 0]

There is one point I'll say about this whole topic. It applies to every religious person, gay basher, or gay supporter, but mostly applies the religious and basher types.

I am former Christian and the reason I left is the more I learned about it, the more it didn't feel right, but to the point. Any religion that says being gay is a sin, seems a little strange. IMO, it feels like that makes gay's seem less than human. It makes the seem like they are a completely different species at that. What makes them less of a person than those who believe in said-religion? IMO, that seems against the religion core beliefs, most religions (Christianity in particular). They preach helping and branching out to the community, in other word improving others. I totally belief that every community needs help. I'm somewhat of active person who performs charity.

Let me try and make a scenario. A gay couple, male or female, lives in a shacky house with a terrible lawn. They are massively in debt and need all the help they can get. Their family can't help them because they don't support them since they became a gay couple. A Christian Church is doing an event in where they are helping every who REALLY needs it. Do they not help them because of their religion? If they don't, that couple could possibly lose everything they have because of their situation. That kinda of goes against the Christian beliefs.

Just something to ponder about.

NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT RELIGION UNDER ME. I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT THEIR BELIEFS UNDER ME. IM SIMPLY STATING SOME THING THAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED.

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

Atheism is true bliss. Let the people do as they please.

Likewise, Stupid Monkey, if you're going to attack someone's character and avoid the debate at hand, you might as well walk out the door. Both of you are bickering like old women. Try posting something with some actual content rather than measuring your dicks. It's getting old... fast.

No, he is calling everyone ignorant and then saying fucked up things. Yeah, I'll call it out.

I have posted questions toward him but he just blows them off. As soon as a true question comes out he ignores it and calls everyone ignorant.

"That gets old... fast."

[Guest Fohacidal]

There is one point I'll say about this whole topic. It applies to every religious person, gay basher, or gay supporter, but mostly applies the religious and basher types.

I am former Christian and the reason I left is the more I learned about it, the more it didn't feel right, but to the point. Any religion that says being gay is a sin, seems a little strange. IMO, it feels like that makes gay's seem less than human. It makes the seem like they are a completely different species at that. What makes them less of a person than those who believe in said-religion? IMO, that seems against the religion core beliefs, most religions (Christianity in particular). They preach helping and branching out to the community, in other word improving others. I totally belief that every community needs help. I'm somewhat of active person who performs charity.

Let me try and make a scenario. A gay couple, male or female, lives in a shacky house with a terrible lawn. They are massively in debt and need all the help they can get. Their family can't help them because they don't support them since they became a gay couple. A Christian Church is doing an event in where they are helping every who REALLY needs it. Do they not help them because of their religion? If they don't, that couple could possibly lose everything they have because of their situation. That kinda of goes against the Christian beliefs.

Just something to ponder about.

NOTE: I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT RELIGION UNDER ME. I AM NOT TRYING TO PUT THEIR BELIEFS UNDER ME. IM SIMPLY STATING SOME THING THAT SHOULD BE DISCUSSED.

As a devout catholic, and knowing my parents Id help them out. I dont reject/hate/put down gay people, I just dont agree with marriages. If someone is in need I can look past all their differences so I can help them out, its what the good man above would want me to do.

Before what I say is taken out of context, I also feel personally, (religion aside) that it would be the right thing to help them. Humans are humans, I dont have the right to decide whether I can let people die and suffer when I can do something about it.

[Neur0 34]

No, he is calling everyone ignorant and then saying fucked up things. Yeah, I'll call it out.

I have posted questions toward him but he just blows them off. As soon as a true question comes out he ignores it and calls everyone ignorant.

"That gets old... fast."

Well fuck dude, pull out your shotgun and shoot him why don't you?

Take a fucking chill pill and present yourself like a mature adult. In other words, when you want to prove someone wrong, it's not good practice to merely say "omg he's bias, so he's liek so wrung lulz."

Want to prove him wrong? Post something THOUGHT-PROVOKING, not the downright retarded shit you call "questions" that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. I have yet to read one of your posts that I can actually claim is worthwhile. It seems to me you troll around looking for excuses to blame Foh. Get over it. You call him a hypocrite for not listening to you, and yet you do the exact same thing...

Gimme a fucking break dude. Post something worthwhile and I might actually consider THINKING about it as opposed to getting angry over the prepubescence that seems to lurk on these forums...

[jombeeno 0]

As a devout catholic, and knowing my parents Id help them out. I dont reject/hate/put down gay people, I just dont agree with marriages. If someone is in need I can look past all their differences so I can help them out, its what the good man above would want me to do.

Thanks for actually sticking topic HEHEHE . I have one query however, what exactly do you have against gay marriages? I've never really asked a Catholic or Christian for that fact. I just want to know what makes you believe that so we can further this discussion.

[Guest Fohacidal]

Thanks for actually sticking topic HEHEHE . I have one query however, what exactly do you have against gay marriages? I've never really asked a Catholic or Christian for that fact. I just want to know what makes you believe that so we can further this discussion.

Read above, its basically because getting married is a tradition deeply rooted in christian practices, and for a ton of VERY vocal gays to want to have the exact same rights and title as straight couples have for a practice that doesnt belong to them is kind of absurd. Marriage is, and should always remain the union between a man and a woman, its a Christian thing. Like I said before, gays can have a "union" but it should in no way be recognized as a marriage (not christian) and it shouldnt be treated exactly like one either (not all but some of the legal perks)

[Øpiate 30]

They don't. Only the insta-marriage barns in Vegas and similar businesses do.

Untrue.

The government is not interfering, a religious marriage and a government marriage are two completely different things (although much of the time go hand in hand). If I am Catholic and I marry my girlfriend with my holy dude present, I get zero benefits from the state for taxs etc. If I am Catholic and I get a marriage liscense for my girlfriend and I, I am married by definition of the government, nothing to do with the Catholic Church I also get access to tax breaks etc.

So if one church does perform same sex marriages, but the state refuses to recognize them, doesn't that impose the moral doctrine of another institution onto said church and the people getting married by this church? Not to mention that the idea of same sex relationships being wrong is a purely religious sentiment, which has no place in American law.

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

Well fuck dude, pull out your shotgun and shoot him why don't you?

Take a fucking chill pill and present yourself like a mature adult. In other words, when you want to prove someone wrong, it's not good practice to merely say "omg he's bias, so he's liek so wrung lulz."

Want to prove him wrong? Post something THOUGHT-PROVOKING, not the downright retarded shit you call "questions" that have nothing to do with the matter at hand. I have yet to read one of your posts that I can actually claim is worthwhile. It seems to me you troll around looking for excuses to blame Foh. Get over it. You call him a hypocrite for not listening to you, and yet you do the exact same thing...

Gimme a fucking break dude. Post something worthwhile and I might actually consider THINKING about it as opposed to getting angry over the prepubescence that seems to lurk on these forums...

You know, because i totally say "omg he's bias, so he's liek so wrung lulz." And you say I need to take a chill pill? This is what I'm talking about, you two are twins or something. I ask questions, but he dodges everyone. Obviously you can't read or something.

The only question I have is WHO CARES if gays get married? What does it bother you? What did they ever do to you to make them not as equal? The men don't like women so they are better? I wouldn't even have a doubt in my mind if the fact that married couples get more benefits than non married. It's a christian tradition, I get that. But guess what, they do. You can't change that, I can't change that. But we can change that the fact that we can say some god damn vows and say they are married and get the benefits.

Then someone said "not married, not going to fly." Well what makes you so special that your vote matters? As much as you think it does, it's fucked up.

Honestly, WHO CARES.

But will this question get dodged? No doubt in my mind.

And yes, I don't appreciate someone who calls everyone ignorant. Then gets mad if someone else challenges there intelligence.

There is no way to prove someone wrong in a topic like this. This will go on forever, because bible thumpers say no because of there religion along with a few others, then the majority of the rest wont care.

[Øpiate 30]

Read above, its basically because getting married is a tradition deeply rooted in christian practices, and for a ton of VERY vocal gays to want to have the exact same rights and title as straight couples have for a practice that doesnt belong to them is kind of absurd. Marriage is, and should always remain the union between a man and a woman, its a Christian thing. Like I said before, gays can have a "union" but it should in no way be recognized as a marriage (not christian) and it shouldnt be treated exactly like one either (not all but some of the legal perks)

But if a Christian church is willing to wed two gays, why should the government have the right to stop them?

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

Read above, its basically because getting married is a tradition deeply rooted in christian practices, and for a ton of VERY vocal gays to want to have the exact same rights and title as straight couples have for a practice that doesnt belong to them is kind of absurd. Marriage is, and should always remain the union between a man and a woman, its a Christian thing. Like I said before, gays can have a "union" but it should in no way be recognized as a marriage (not christian) and it shouldnt be treated exactly like one either (not all but some of the legal perks)

Alright, if it is a Christian tradition, then shouldn't we block every other religion from becoming married?

Lets say a jewish couple gets married, they aren't Christian, why don't we send them away? If "the christian god is the only god" or whatever it says in the bible, don't you think that he wouldn't want jewish people to get married.

If we are going to block one, we should block all.

[Guest Fohacidal]

But if a Christian church is willing to wed two gays, why should the government have the right to stop them?

Really they shouldnt, when it all boils down to the nuts and bolts the opposition to gay marriage comes from christian believers only and if a recognized (most likely protestant) church is willing to conduct same-sex marriages then go ahead. I might not agree with it, it might not sit well with me but in the end Ill have to respect that because it happened.

[Stupid_Monkey 0]

But if a Christian church is willing to wed two gays, why should the government have the right to stop them?

Really they shouldnt, when it all boils down to the nuts and bolts the opposition to gay marriage comes from christian believers only and if a recognized (most likely protestant) church is willing to conduct same-sex marriages then go ahead. I might not agree with it, it might not sit well with me but in the end Ill have to respect that because it happened.

I dont get that.. You said this entire time that you are 100% against it but then you say you'll respect it?

I don't mean this as rude.. I'm just asking.

Even though you said you're ignoring me.

[jombeeno 0]

Read above, its basically because getting married is a tradition deeply rooted in christian practices, and for a ton of VERY vocal gays to want to have the exact same rights and title as straight couples have for a practice that doesnt belong to them is kind of absurd. Marriage is, and should always remain the union between a man and a woman, its a Christian thing. Like I said before, gays can have a "union" but it should in no way be recognized as a marriage (not christian) and it shouldnt be treated exactly like one either (not all but some of the legal perks)

Alright, I was too lazy to read other posts . Thanks, it cleared a lot of questions I had for gay marriage in general. (at least from the religious POV)

I think this topic is always a heated discussion because of how America was developed as a nation. Back in the older days, Church was a regular activity and the majority of families morals at the time were formed off of religion. However, in this day in age times are changing. People are trying to break off from the traditional mold. It's kinda of old beliefs that are set in stone clashing with the newer beliefs that want the older beliefs to change. Just my thought on this on this topic as a whole.

gays can have a "union"

Right there is something that all religious people and gay bashers need to understand. Foh, IMO they deserve some sort of union, its a little cold-hearted to make them not able to enjoy one thing that they've always wanted. Do you think that its possible in the future that we may have a separate set of legal marriage terms just for gays? I think that Congress or whoever needs to start making ideas for this, because the longer we wait they more hostile this topic becomes.

Your welcome, to say anything about what I've said. I'm all eyes and ears to what other POV's can be shared.

[Neur0 34]

You know, because i totally say "omg he's bias, so he's liek so wrung lulz." And you say I need to take a chill pill? This is what I'm talking about, you two are twins or something. I ask questions, but he dodges everyone. Obviously you can't read or something.

The only question I have is WHO CARES if gays get married? What does it bother you? What did they ever do to you to make them not as equal? The men don't like women so they are better? I wouldn't even have a doubt in my mind if the fact that married couples get more benefits than non married. It's a christian tradition, I get that. But guess what, they do. You can't change that, I can't change that. But we can change that the fact that we can say some god damn vows and say they are married and get the benefits.

Then someone said "not married, not going to fly." Well what makes you so special that your vote matters? As much as you think it does, it's fucked up.

Honestly, WHO CARES.

But will this question get dodged? No doubt in my mind.

And yes, I don't appreciate someone who calls everyone ignorant. Then gets mad if someone else challenges there intelligence.

There is no way to prove someone wrong in a topic like this. This will go on forever, because bible thumpers say no because of there religion along with a few others, then the majority of the rest wont care.

By no means are we twins, we're friends. We differ almost completely on politics and religion (I'm a liberal atheist). I'm merely making an observation, and from what I can tell, it's nonstop bickering between the both of you. When it comes to gay marriage, I couldn't give a rat's ass if two gays felt compelled to get married and did so. If it makes 'em happy, why not? As for the religious aspect, that I'll never understand, as religion is not something I even bother putting myself through.

As for the relationship between you and Foh, it seems you attack him every chance you get. Maybe if you asked a little nicer (in reference to the "chill pill" mentioned earlier) he'd be more inclined to respond with something, if anything at all, because what you're doing is exactly what he's doing. One of you needs to be the better man and decide who's going to answer to whom.

Now get back on topic and make it worthwhile. I'm tired of reading four pages about bias, ignorance, and stupidity.

[Øpiate 30]

Really they shouldnt, when it all boils down to the nuts and bolts the opposition to gay marriage comes from christian believers only and if a recognized (most likely protestant) church is willing to conduct same-sex marriages then go ahead. I might not agree with it, it might not sit well with me but in the end Ill have to respect that because it happened.

This is exactly why I believe the government should not be able to interfere or refuse to recognize a same sex marriage, and should not be able to force churches to perform same sex marriages. From a legal aspect, not having the full rights of marriage can cause huge problems when a same sex couple faces the only inevitability that we all do in life - death and taxes. To say that a same sex couple cannot be married and enjoy the same legal benefits as an opposite sex couple forces a religion-based moral restriction on them and is unfair and unconstitutional.