Conflicting Rules

[Kiyoko Tomoe 14]

I've found that there are rules that sort of conflict with one another. Namely, the rule that you can kill somebody if they kill an innocent, and the rule that you can kill for random shooting. If you kill somebody for random shooting, AKA t-baiting, it isn't fair that the former rule, that one can be killed for killing an innocent, should be allowed use if the t-baiter was an innocent. I had to deal with such a situation just prior in the day. I think killing somebody for killing a t-baiter should be RDM unless that player who killed the t-baiter requests to be killed for killing an innocent.

[Yunki 2197]

I disagree, it gives Traitors a huge advantage if they can kill inno's and be like "He was T-baiting so you can't kill me" regardless on whether or not they killed someone for that reason. It is frustrating to getting killed when you kill a T-baiter, but the T-baiter should be getting his punishments in the form of slays and eventually a ban. I believe that if this exception was made you will have more complications in the server.

[krony the brony 1938]

Didn't know that we can deal with T-baiter, my apology I will pay attentions to those T-baiter

[Faded 266]

11 minutes ago, Kiyoko Tomoe said:

I've found that there are rules that sort of conflict with one another. Namely, the rule that you can kill somebody if they kill an innocent, and the rule that you can kill for random shooting. If you kill somebody for random shooting, AKA t-baiting, it isn't fair that the former rule, that one can be killed for killing an innocent, should be allowed use if the t-baiter was an innocent. I had to deal with such a situation just prior in the day. I think killing somebody for killing a t-baiter should be RDM unless that player who killed the t-baiter requests to be killed for killing an innocent.

 

 

Not really a conflicting rule because those fall under the 'Reason you may Kill someone,' doesn't mean that if someone sudden started shooting that you have to kill them. You take the risk of using that as your evidence that they are a traitor. Just as the person who killed you is taking a risk by assuming since you killed an Inno that you are a traitor.

 

Not only that but you are completely ignoring that just because you say he was shooting makes it so you are unkillable for that action, which as Yunki pointed out is unfairly overpowered for T's. They can claim someone randomly was shooting then cry RDM when they are killed.

 

We've had this brought up in the past regarding traitor weapons, just because you were 'confirmed' inno did not mean you could go running around with traitor weapons out, they were taking the risk of having a weapon that was KOSable. Now most intelligent people wouldn't kill them, but if they did die it wasn't RDM.

 

If someone is constantly baiting to get killed I'd recommend pointing it out to admins or recording the continued baiting and report it on our forums. Then they may be punished for intentionally griefing on the server.

 

 

 

[Ironic 2277]

You kill an innocent, no matter what they did, you can be KOS'd for it. As Yunki said, a T an easily kill an Innocent and make excuses of why they killed the Inno. That's the big reason I believe why that rule is in place.

[Avenger 1048]

Currently, the motd(gmod) doesn't say "traitor baiting" is slayable.  @ZachPL, I think you should add that to the motd.

 

28 minutes ago, Kiyoko Tomoe said:

I think killing somebody for killing a t-baiter should be RDM unless that player who killed the t-baiter requests to be killed for killing an innocent.

The problem with that is not everyone who watches you kill an innocent is going to know that the innocent did something kosable.

[Kiyoko Tomoe 14]

12 minutes ago, Sportsteen583 said:

Yunki pointed out is unfairly overpowered for T's. They can claim someone randomly was shooting then cry RDM when they are killed.

Ah, I was referring specifically to people killing as you kill a t-baiter. I understand if someone doesn't see it, they can still kill you for kiling without any sort of issues morality-wise, but I don't think it's fair that a person, watching another killing the t-baiter as they t-bait, should be allowed to jsut straight-up kill the one who kill a t-baiter. I completely understand the other end of the argument though, just I find it a little unfair a ruling that the person who killed the t-baiter doesn't get justice for being killed by somebody who even witnessed the t-baiting and the killing of the t-baiter.

6 minutes ago, Avenger said:

Currently, the motd(gmod) doesn't say "traitor baiting" is slayable.  @ZachPL, I think you should add that to the motd.

It does say random shooting (at props or people) is KODable, which is what t-baiting is in a sense, though I do believe the words traitor baiting should be included somewhere so people aren't confused if it ever does come up without somebody knowing the term. Though why I'm on this topic when the issue of mine wasn't the lack of a traitor baiting rule but rather a sort of conflict in the ruling of random shooting, I don't know.

[DMODW 643]

I love t baiting.

gives me a chance to rd- i mean do a t baiter some justice.

want to break that window? use a crowbar.

keep that weapon holstered soldier.

killed an inno? while i'm inno and all inno's are internally entwined, plus it gives me a chance to rd- do a murderer some justice.

in all seriousness, you kill an innocent, looks bad, you shoot your weapon, looks bad, could get you killed.

you watch someone t bait/ watch an inno kill that t baiter, you're still watching a murder go down, you don't do anything about it and someone see's you possibly conspiring with a traitor, and you became kosable.

it all depends on the IQ/ trigger finger of the person in in the situation

[krony the brony 1938]

Just let admins know that person are T-baiting and we will warn them, if they do it again then we slay t-baiting.

 

 

[Dawn 129]

I know the admins have already given their two cent s on this but I just wanted to say that for me, to avoid that situation, I just only shoot someone if they are kos or shooting at me. 

[Faded 266]

10 minutes ago, Kiyoko Tomoe said:

Ah, I was referring specifically to people killing as you kill a t-baiter. I understand if someone doesn't see it, they can still kill you for kiling without any sort of issues morality-wise, but I don't think it's fair that a person, watching another killing the t-baiter as they t-bait, should be allowed to jsut straight-up kill the one who kill a t-baiter. I completely understand the other end of the argument though, just I find it a little unfair a ruling that the person who killed the t-baiter doesn't get justice for being killed by somebody who even witnessed the t-baiting and the killing of the t-baiter.

7

 

That rule you want is solely for a super specific situation, someone killing you who witnessed you kill a inno randomly shooting.  That makes it far harder for admins to actually manage the server though. They are already punished with a karma loss for killing an inno. 

 

Again there is nothing saying you have to kill the guy baiting, that is your own decision to risk that karma loss.

 

I'm going to go a step further with an example. Let's say the baiting Inno shot you and you killed him. You could still be killed by someone who watched you get shot and kill the inno. We can punish the guy who was randomly shooting and damaging you, but not the guy who killed you for killing an inno. Why? He doesn't know if the guy who shot you had DNA evidence on you, saw you commit a traitorous act, ect. All he knows is that someone shot you, and you killed an inno. Now if he's cautious and perhaps smart he won't straight up kill you because he'll more than likely end up dead, but as far as he's seen you have committed a traitorous act so he could risk it and kill you. Everyone has a different point that they decide to kill someone based on traitorous behaviors.

 

That is the beauty of TTT, or at least the beauty that I think blob and I wanted back in the old days when we were making those rules. TTT is not meant to be like JB with a 10 page rule set that breaks down each scenario and what is acceptable. It's meant to be a simple list of 'do this and you can be killed.' The fun comes from the variety of rounds caused by this. Maybe one round ends up a hilarious 'RDM' Chain because I killed a baiting inno, or I knife/bat a detective in a room full of people and laugh as they end up killing each other, or maybe as a Traitor I say "______ is random shooting KOS" just to cause trouble. Setting up strict rules that govern when a situation is RDM not only makes it a nightmare for admins, but impossible given how many different situations TTT creates.

 

[Ian 325]

I say apples and oranges to the OP. I don't see what those two rules have to do with each other.

[ZachPL 1754]

Actually having T-Baiting as a rule I think is too broad and would be up to interpretation. The rules clearly states what you can't do, with many being aspects of t-baiting.

 

No point in repeating/making rules more broad.