Mass Shootings

[trav 6834]

im not even sorry, your ideas and opinions are garbage. you're trying to claim that you can change basic animal instincts through education. these instincts are still present in even the most elite special forces and it takes them literal YEARS of full time commitment to be able to suppress their fear and do their job. compare this to schoolchildren who would participate in maybe 2-3 of these "zerg rush drills" a year and its pretty obvious that in a real life situation every second spent preparing goes out the window.

this should get moved to spam

 

It's not a good argument to make that it will take a long time to do, so we should not even start. Sure there's no doubt that it will take an extensive amount of time to change the mentality of mob psychology but you have to start somewhere. I think at the very least it's better to be prepared in some way than in no way at all.

 

It becomes fight or flight when you're stuck. You could even argue instincts are to fight the situation when your own life is on the line. Rather than trying to plead with the gunman, mob mentality needs to change that everyone viciously attacks him at once.

 

I think you're stuck on the fact that elementary kids would be doing this sort of training or discussion. I never said that or initially even thought about it. However I do think that maybe college or high school students should. I think just having a discussion is a good start rather than doing absolutely nothing like you're seeming to suggest.

 

 

Here's the story I was referring to where passengers on the plane overcame 6 hijackers. None of these people were trained or had any "years of fulltime commitment" to suppress their fears.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Airlines_Flight_7554

 

"A Tianjin Airlines Embraer ERJ-190 jet was leaving on its daily route from Hotan Airport to Ürümqi Diwopu International Airport at 12:25 pm (0425 Greenwich Mean Time) with 92 passengers and nine crew. The suspected hijackers, six Uyghur men aged 20–36 from the city of Kashgar, boarded the aircraft without notice. Surveillance video showed the suspects feigning disability to bypass airport security; one suspect hid his aluminum pipe weapon inside his crutch. The hijackers donned staff uniforms and split into two parties of three in the front and back of the plane. One of the suspects said they aimed to fly the aircraft out of the country to wage holy war;China has previously raised concerns that Uyghur militants are linking up to their Islamist counterparts in Pakistan.

 

According to the flight captain, sounds of screaming and fighting emerged from inside the plane at 12:32 pm and 5,700 metres (18,700 ft) above ground. The three hijackers in front were attempting to break down the door to the cockpit, according to the China Daily, injuring a flight attendant who resisted them. Witnesses note that the attackers were armed with the sharp ends of a disassembled aluminum crutch. Simultaneously, the three men in the back brandished metal bars and explosives, beating seated passengers while announcing "whoever stands up will die".

 

Upon hearing this declaration of intent, Fu Huacheng, a passenger and the minister of education for Lop County, recalled running out of his seat and shouting in Uyghur to his fellow passengers: "Come on! Let's stand up and fight them." Up to six mostly Uyghur plainclothes police responded to Fu's call; microbloggers confirmed witnessing plainclothes policemen removing homemade explosives from the suspects. A group of passengers, led by a local doctor, escorted the elderly and children away from the violence. Some passengers successfully activated the mid-air anti-hijacking contingency plan, which involves pushing a trolley in front of the cockpit door. A passenger interviewed by the Associated Press confirmed that passengers used their belts to restrain the attackers; witnesses to the hijacking posted bloody pictures of the arrests on Sina Weibo.

 

When the captain heard confirmation from a flight attendant that the events in the cabin were indeed an attempted hijacking and not just a fight, he turned the aircraft back to Hotan. The jet returned safely at Hotan Airport at 12:45 pm. The Civil Aviation Administration of China reported that seven passengers, two security officers, and two flight attendants sustained injuries from the fighting. In addition, two of the suspects died from injuries on board; another two of the four detained were taken to the hospital due to self-mutilation."

 

 

 

Also see United 93 Flight where the passengers successfully stopped and interrupted the hijackers plans on 9/11 from potentially hitting the White House.

 

 

It's a question of mob psychology. After a demonstration of murderous violence, a small group of people (hijackers) can cow a large group of people (passengers) by threatening any individual who rises against them. If the seated people believe there is reason to hope for a nonviolent resolution of the problem, they will remain seated because they do not want to be the individual/hero who gets his/her carotid artery sliced by the hijackers.

 

In the case of Flight 93, the passengers were able to get the news of the suicide hijackings of the other airliners, so they knew the hope of a non-violent resolution was slim. They thus achieved the critical mass to fight back.

 

A group of people can prevent someone from doing more harm without training. They will likely only do so if they realize the chance of survival is slim. If the gunman comes into the room you are hiding in, I think it is necessary for all in that room to immediately attack him or at least have a plan to do so. That is the type of mentality that I think needs to start to change.

 

Rather than new gun laws, I believe we need a general shift in our attitude toward public violence -- wherein everyone begins to assume some responsibility for containing it. It is worth noting that this shift has already occurred in one area of our lives, without anyone’s having received special training or even agreeing that a change in attitude was necessary: Just imagine how a few men with box cutters would now be greeted by their fellow passengers at 30,000 feet.

 

Perhaps we can find the same resolve on the ground.

 

 

 

As for it being moved to spam... heaven forbid we have any sort of discussion in the News and Debate subforum.

 

Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction is to be expected from a sensationalist such as yourself.

 

knee-jerk reaction

Fig. an automatic or reflex reaction; an immediate reaction made without examining causes or facts.

 

 

 

Edit:

 

I actually found a video for the last resort

 

While even I admit the entire video and training is controversial... I also don't agree with some of what he is saying but just take a look at 5:34 to see how they quickly react and subdue the gunman.

 

 

Unarmed people can be trained to respond intelligently to violent emergencies, and the appropriate drills seem well worth doing. (If you watch the linked video, you will see that rather than simply terrifying students, these drills can be fun and empowering.) Of course, there are no guarantees when tackling a man with a gun, and training of this kind makes sense only for students above a certain age. But such “active shooter” drills, if widely taught, would probably reduce the threat of mass killings. 

[DogsGoMeow 1606]

You people shouldn't even have to think of all these measures in the first place. I don't go into college and have to think what if some crazed lunatic comes in to attempt to kill everyone, nor should the American public have to think about this..

 

Every single time this problem comes on the news "Such and such shoots up school/university/park" it's become so common it's almost like watching the weather forecast.

 

Carl is completely right, the instinct for students (since it's mostly school shootings) and anyone else who are caught up in an attempted mass killing is run and or hide, not go hero and take him down.

[trav 6834]

You people shouldn't even have to think of all these measures in the first place. I don't go into college and have to think what if some crazed lunatic comes in to attempt to kill everyone, nor should the American public have to think about this..

 

Every single time this problem comes on the news "Such and such shoots up school/university/park" it's become so common it's almost like watching the weather forecast.

 

Carl is completely right, the instinct for students (since it's mostly school shootings) and anyone else who are caught up in an attempted mass killing is run and or hide, not go hero and take him down.

 

I completely agree with you on the former. However I'd argue a school shooting can happen anywhere. They're only more prevalent in the States.

 

As for the latter: most of you are failing to grasp that this whole idea is for the last resort, which I've tried to point out countless times now.

[DogsGoMeow 1606]

I completely agree with you on the former. However I'd argue a school shooting can happen anywhere. They're only more prevalent in the States.

 

As for the latter: most of you are failing to grasp that this whole idea is for the last resort, which I've tried to point out countless times now.

I understand your point of last resort, but I was just stating that this shouldn't be a problem in the first place, and it's a growing problem at that.

 

Things need to be asked:

 

Why is it a problem? what can be done to tackle this problem? those are the things that need to be looked at. 

Since all that happens after each shooting is it just gets swept under the rug.

[trav 6834]

I understand your point of last resort, but I was just stating that this shouldn't be a problem in the first place, and it's a growing problem at that.

 

Things need to be asked:

 

Why is it a problem? what can be done to tackle this problem? those are the things that need to be looked at. 

Since all that happens after each shooting is it just gets swept under the rug.

 

I am completely with you on that regard.

[Carl Sagan 2577]

It's not a good argument to make that it will take a long time to do, so we should not even start.

Thats even assuming your idea has any worth.

It becomes fight or flight when you're stuck. You could even argue instincts are to fight the situation when your own life is on the line. Rather than trying to plead with the gunman, mob mentality needs to change that everyone viciously attacks him at once.

Only if you have a hope in hell of fighting. Against a gun the second you make a move you are toast. NOBODY wants to be the first person to get shot, personally if there is even a slight chance that swat can get in before you are executed id take it. this reminds me of those knife self defense videos that attempt to teach ninja tricks to disarm your opponent when in reality you just get fucked up against someone outside of a classroom scenario

I think you're stuck on the fact that elementary kids would be doing this sort of training or discussion. I never said that or initially even thought about it. However I do think that maybe college or high school students should. I think just having a discussion is a good start rather than doing absolutely nothing like you're seeming to suggest.

yeah lets give students who are already under a ton of stress even more, totally a good idea.

 

Here's the story I was referring to where passengers on the plane overcame 6 hijackers. None of these people were trained or had any "years of fulltime commitment" to suppress their fears.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tianjin_Airlines_Flight_7554

 

irrelevant.an enclosed airplane cockpit with "sharpened aluminum rods" vs an open classroom/gymnasium with guns

 

 

also see United 93 Flight where the passengers successfully stopped and interrupted the hijackers plans on 9/11 from potentially hitting the White House.

Flight 93 was exceptionally heroic but i still do not expect this level of self sacrifice from a group on a wide scale, let alone being able to teach it.

 

Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction is to be expected from a sensationalist such as yourself.

 

knee-jerk reaction

Fig. an automatic or reflex reaction; an immediate reaction made without examining causes or facts.

lol

then he posts the definition

LOL

 

 

 

 

[trav 6834]

lol

then he posts the definition

LOL

Hahaha I did that specifically because I knew it'd get a reaction from you. It worked!

[The Doctor Zed 343]

Im gonna mass shoot you two