Level-Headed Religious Discussion

[tex1an2 680]

I don't need religion to tell me how to be a good person, I am smart, I don't know everything sure, not even close, but I know myself, and I have common sense, and I will live a good life, protecting the innocent and the ones I love, no god can sway my resolve and no god can take that from me.

No god would take that from you. However, eventually you realize you're fundamentally powerless TO protect the innocent and your loved ones. That is in essence the realization of brokenness. You cannot by yourself save anyone, and you cannot on your own save yourself. Humans have a tendency to seek control. Which is ironic because we can't control anything.

[Shadow 1044]

See these arguements that people practicing religion would make the world a better place would make sense if:

1) 95% of human beings knew how to practice it.

a)Many people put down others who are not of their faith or do the "talking down with a fake-caring tone" you know what i mean, like "oh its too bad youre going to hell" stuff like that.

b) There are also many who are the extremists.

2) People actually followed through with the way they promised to live according to their religion. (kind of the same thing as 1 but yeah.

Religion would be fine and dandy if 90% of the world's population didn't develop down's syndrome or tourette's while practicing it.

I personally have no remorse living the way I do, I want to help those around me, better myself, and better those close to me, protect myself, and the ones I love, and live a good life as a good person, if there is a god and I live this way and still go to hell if there is one, I would much rather live with the devil then anyways. For a god claiming to be merciful and benevolent turning someone away like that is a fake and a liar. At least with the devil I know his true intentions, and I would welcome it in that scenario, I would do my time knowing I did the right thing.

I don't need religion to tell me how to be a good person, I am smart, I don't know everything sure, not even close, but I know myself, and I have common sense, and I will live a good life, protecting the innocent and the ones I love, no god can sway my resolve and no god can take that from me.

I actually like you now

[Balthazar 15]

No god would take that from you. However, eventually you realize you're fundamentally powerless TO protect the innocent and your loved ones. That is in essence the realization of brokenness. You cannot by yourself save anyone, and you cannot on your own save yourself.

Well I can die knowing I tried my hardest and that's all that matters to me.

[projectmayhem9 8]

People will never let go of religion. Every time science can disprove a God, people will adapt just like they did with evolution and "intelligent design."

Evolution is compatible with theism, it does not disprove it.

[Empire 30]

I think the biggest part that religion plays in the world is hope. It gives hope for a better life even if you don't have a good one in this life. There have been many stories that people were on the verge of suicide or something just as bad and they turned to religion and they now live a rejuvenated life. My mother, for example, had a really hard experience and she turned very religious and got over it (much to my detriment) and now she's as happy as could be. While I myself don't believe that God actually came down and helped her personally, her belief in a supernatural being did.

Another fact to think about is that the basic, most underlying facts in most religions are the same. Don't kill people for example.

[Balthazar 15]

I think the biggest part that religion plays in the world is hope. It gives hope for a better life even if you don't have a good one in this life. There have been many stories that people were on the verge of suicide or something just as bad and they turned to religion and they now live a rejuvenated life. My mother, for example, had a really hard experience and she turned very religious and got over it (much to my detriment) and now she's as happy as could be. While I myself don't believe that God actually came down and helped her personally, her belief in a supernatural being did.

Another fact to think about is that the basic, most underlying facts in most religions are the same. Don't kill people for example.

I understand the concept, people just use it wrong most of the time and become psychotic religion freaks who think that because they had hope from the thought of a guy that might be real and that saved their life, that they need to tell everyone about him and that it will save everyone even people who don't need to be saved and even insist on being saved.

I had a very close best friend I would hang out with at least once a week and after I lost contact with him for a few years ago I recently found he became a born-again christian and all he can talk about 24/7 is jesus and it makes me mad. We had such good times, you know, sneaking out of his house at night and rolling around town and shit for no reason, and now he's all jesus jesus jesus. It's kind of killer. I don't even think we've actually seen eachother since then. We just found eachother on facebook and then I facepalmed when he went super jesus on me. But he is a good person so it doesn't bother me so much. It's just he's not the best buddy I had when I was younger.

Also.

I actually like you now

Um. Thanks? Not really sure how to respond to that now. haha.

[Ace 51]

people just use it wrong most of the time and become psychotic religion freaks

This is completely and utterly false.

[Frosted Butts 53]

Evolution is compatible with theism, it does not disprove it.

Christians did not believe in evolution for a long time. Once it was scientifically proven, "intelligent design" came about. It is compatible now, but it once wasn't. Every new discovery that is fact, yet incompatible with a religion, will be integrated into that religion or the religion will fail.

[Frosted Butts 53]

Fuck me and my double post

[`rAwR 23]

This is completely and utterly false.

While I do disagree with the "most" part, there is some truth to his statement. Nobody likes the invasive religious guy whose single goal is to convert you to jesus and to tell you about how he has been changed. I understand that there are those people out there, but like balthazar, they drive me nuts when you can't change the topic with them.

[Contract Killer 24]

I used to be a hardcore Christian until becoming an agnostic, and recently an atheist. I realized religion wasn't what was making me do good, it was my self, my own personal drive and motives. I was Christian until I started to open my mind to different ideas, and not immediately ignore any other beliefs/ideas, and thought for myself. One quote that really speaks to me is:

[Balthazar 15]

This is completely and utterly false.

Well from my experiences it is true.

But i think I have something here that describes my feelings here, not necessarily on religion but the world as a whole, with religion.

[Ace 51]

Well from my experiences it is true.

But i think I have something here that describes my feelings here, not necessarily on religion but the world as a whole, with religion.

Ok, but when making a generalized statement about a large group of people (billions), you cannot speak from experience (aka the area you live in).

[tex1an2 680]

Well from my experiences it is true.

But i think I have something here that describes my feelings here, not necessarily on religion but the world as a whole, with religion.

Do you believe that without religion we would come to an understanding? It's not religion that causes war and violence, it's ignorance, pride, and greed. Every war that ever existed, religion was an excuse, not the cause. The crusades were lead by papacy with an ulterior motive for wealth. Extreme Islam is a reaction against westernization of the Muslim society. Wars start either as the started by or a reaction to a ruthless, greedy aggressor.

[Balthazar 15]

Ok, but when making a generalized statement about a large group of people (billions), you cannot speak from experience (aka the area you live in).

Well considering I've had many conversations with these people from around the world on the internet it seems there are quite a bit of them, and that they are very well spread around the world.

Edit:

Do you believe that without religion we would come to an understanding? It's not religion that causes war and violence, it's ignorance, pride, and greed. Every war that ever existed, religion was an excuse, not the cause. The crusades were lead by religion people with an ulterior motive for wealth. Extreme Islam is a reaction against westernization of the Muslim society. Wars start either as the started by or a reaction to a ruthless, greedy aggressor.

The way I view it Texan:

This is going to sound weird and not make a ton of sense but if you can get what I'm saying and get my point that'll be fine.

Imagine the mean kid in the neighborhood uses the sun and a magnifying glass on ants.

Let's pretend the big bully is humans. The sunlight is war, and in a lot of cases, i.e. the previously mentioned crusades.

Religion is the magnifying glass.

edit edit:

Also Contract Killer that is my exact take on it. Period.

[UnknownLegend 5480]

I'm with CK-- I don't need to fear God in order to make me behave, nor do I need to have some proverbial carrot dangled in front of me to be a good person.

[tex1an2 680]

The way I view it Texan:

This is going to sound weird and not make a ton of sense but if you can get what I'm saying and get my point that'll be fine.

Imagine the mean kid in the neighborhood uses the sun and a magnifying glass on ants.

Let's pretend the big bully is humans. The sunlight is war, and in a lot of cases, i.e. the previously mentioned crusades.

Religion is the magnifying glass..

Let us assume this definition is true: war is the outcome when two groups cannot trust or coexist with each other and survival is on the line or one group possesses a commodity the other covets (i.e. wealth, power, land.) Religion is often used in either circumstance to justify the resolution of war. However, religion in pure essence is just an idea. Any idea can replace religion for it's justification. An example would be ecoterrorism. The idea that humanity is harming the Earth and that drastic action needs to be taken is the root of why people may commit violent and horrendous attacks against fellow humans. Another example would be Darwinism, interestingly enough. The purging of specific races to produce a "pure" race has led to countless acts of genocide in several countries around the world.

You're correlating religion with causes for war, when really it needs to be corrected for a third correlate: extremism. The point when an idea because a necessity. The point when an idea excuses genocide of people-groups. That is the magnifying glass.

[UnknownLegend 5480]

Balthazar's analogy is fatally flawed if it assumes the "magnifying glass," which is a tool, is the motivation for burning the ants. Religion is a tool, like tex1an said. It can be wielded for a number of reasons. People use religion as an excuse for war because it's compelling; that's its power. Religion itself is not the cause, it's a form of propaganda; it's a tool to otherize and dehumanize your opponents.

[Balthazar 15]

Let us assume this definition is true: war is the outcome when two groups cannot trust or coexist with each other and survival is on the line or one group possesses a commodity the other covets (i.e. wealth, power, land.) Religion is often used in either circumstance to justify the resolution of war. However, religion in pure essence is just an idea. Any idea can replace religion for it's justification. An example would be ecoterrorism. The idea that humanity is harming the Earth and that drastic action needs to be taken is the root of why people may commit violent and horrendous attacks against fellow humans. Another example would be Darwinism, interestingly enough. The purging of specific races to produce a "pure" race has led to countless acts of genocide in several countries around the world.

You're correlating religion with causes for war, when really it needs to be corrected for a third correlate: extremism. The point when an idea because a necessity. The point when an idea excuses genocide of people-groups. That is the magnifying glass.

I agree with everything you say, I'm just saying religion doesn't help solve it all, if there was 1 religion everyon agreed upon I would think otherwise somewhat.

When it comes down to it is just the fact that 75-80% of human beings are stupid, evil, terrible people. And the other 25% are outnumbered, still trying to do our parts anyways. Who knows, maybe we take the world sometime. Let's roll.

[UnknownLegend 5480]

When it comes down to it is just the fact that 75-80% of human beings are stupid, evil, terrible people. And the other 25% are outnumbered, still trying to do our parts anyways. Who knows, maybe we take the world sometime. Let's roll.

...I guess you did say this was a level-headed debate, not necessarily an intelligent one.

[tex1an2 680]

I agree with everything you say, I'm just saying religion doesn't help solve it all, if there was 1 religion everyon agreed upon I would think otherwise somewhat.

When it comes down to it is just the fact that 75-80% of human beings are stupid, evil, terrible people. And the other 25% are outnumbered, still trying to do our parts anyways. Who knows, maybe we take the world sometime. Let's roll.

If you were born in a different circumstance, in a different culture, and in a different time do you believe you would still be able to say you were born to be virtuous? Everyone has the ability, the capability, and the desire to commit evil acts. Everyone has the potential, and everyone do preform varying degrees of wrong. If you believe Lying is wrong, you're also held to that standard. If you believe murder is wrong, what is murder if not an action acted on in anger? Everyone's been angry. If you believe envy is wrong, everyone's wanted something that wasn't theirs. If you believe lust is wrong, ha ha this is the internet.

No one's innocent, and no one's righteous. We can't live a virtuous life completely? If God is just, do you think he need ignore an act of evil you did when you were younger? If he is just, does that mean he shouldn't punish you for all the lies that bred hardships on others? If God is just, do you honestly believe he'd forgive crimes committed in any circumstance? God IS just. And because of that Justice, we all deserve a fate far worse. But God is also merciful. I won't delve into religious terminology or phrases because I think everyone here has heard them more than they'd like to. The truth of the matter is: if there is a God and he is just.. If not for some redeeming grace, we're all boned.

[Balthazar 15]

...I guess you did say this was a level-headed debate, not necessarily an intelligent one.

Hey I'm tired it's late and I wanted to say it in laymans terms rather than my usual constructive posts. (see previous posts in thread)

rofl.

/bedtime

Edit: Also,

Texan:

That is all.

[fatb0y 1337]

Where is Fohacidal from 08?

[UnknownLegend 5480]

I feel like '08 Zeus would have made some fine contributions to this debate as well.

[notkane 2]

In my opnion i believe in Greek mythology :3 but i have no logic. I don't believe in god but i believe there is a outer person out there that created man.......and woman>.>... but anyways if there is a outer *god* wouldn't he show him self by now.