why humanity

[TeflonAssassin 63]

I think the bottom line is that any control or prohibition will only limit the law abiding citizens ability to own a gun. If you want to commit homicide you're not going to worry about gun laws.

[Dyscivist 5686]

ITT:

People think knife attacks are just as deadly as guns (btw, that attacker in China yesterday, stabbed 22 people, not a single one died.) I shouldn't even have to explain this one.

Russia has a murder rate of over twice that of the United States and also has next to no civilian gun ownership. Other methods of murder are not negligible.

Switzerland, as I've already mentioned, has a very high gun ownership rate, yet only 89 received bodily harm by firearms in comparison to the 526 injured by bladed weapons in 2006, and this was not an atypical year.

You keep making false claims about the failure of gun control worldwide, when this just isn't true. The US ranks far above other developed nations when it comes to gun fatalities per population, and that's ignoring suicide numbers.

I didn't ever say that wasn't the case. It does rank far above other countries, but I don't think that you can cite lax gun regulations as the reason for that being the case. The reasons that I don't think you can I've already provided, those being that the time in which gun regulation was the heaviest was the time with the most violent crime in the US, the non-decreasing gun crime statistics in other countries when they instituted regulations, and the prevalence of countries around the world with a high amount of guns per capita and next to no violent crime. You can't just cite the gun crime rates in the US and say that it must be a result of a lack of regulation.

To add to that, here's a study I found done by two Harvard criminologists (yes, actual experts) giving credence to the idea that gun regulation isn't effective, likely with far more evidence and eloquence than I could ever muster.

As for Switzerland, comparing gun ownership there to gun ownership in the United States is absolutely foolish:

http://www.washingto...toting-utopias/

In that article the chick says that it's not true that Switzerland has high levels of gun ownership. This is just patently false.

Switzerland has the 4th highest rate of private gun ownership of any country on the planet, only falling below the United States, Serbia and Yemen.

Not only that, but the country hasn't imposed any stricter gun regulations in recent history, either.

After such a blatant falsity right out of the gate in that article, I think I'll just stop reading there.

[Christmas 643]

I think the bottom line is that any control or prohibition will only limit the law abiding citizens ability to own a gun. If you want to commit homicide you're not going to worry about gun laws.

And how do you think they will be acquiring these guns if they cannot purchase them legally?

And what do you think the negative is to outlawing or controlling the purchase of automatic firearms and high-powered rifles?

Also, if you guys are going to just throw stats around, how about some linkage to verify your claims?

Final edit: Just looked at the "rate of gun ownership" claim. Switzerland is fourth in gun ownership per capita, but they have half the number of guns than the United States does. That is absolutely insane.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Edited December 15, 2012 by Christmas

[TeflonAssassin 63]

I think the bottom line is that any control or prohibition will only limit the law abiding citizens ability to own a gun. If you want to commit homicide you're not going to worry about gun laws.

And how do you think they will be acquiring these guns if they cannot purchase them legally?

And what do you think the negative is to outlawing or controlling the purchase of automatic firearms and high-powered rifles?

Also, if you guys are going to just throw stats around, how about some linkage to verify your claims?

Final edit: Just looked at the "rate of gun ownership" claim. Switzerland is fourth in gun ownership per capita, but they have half the number of guns than the United States does. That is absolutely insane.

http://en.wikipedia....pita_by_country

Illegally? No matter what laws we pass for guns there will always be a black market. And if you want to tell me statistics of how 90% of illegal guns were once legal guns I would tell you that as the demand rises a supplier will meet the demand. And also I don't think limiting or restricting the sale of larger guns will help much. If you have noticed the trend the shooters tend to start off with smaller calibre weapons and stash away or use the larger ones later. If people want to kill someone with a gun all they need is a pipe and something that will strike the bullet. If you think outlawing guns will fix anything then you should outlaw bullets as well.

Edited December 15, 2012 by TeflonAssassin

[Guest Fohacidal]

I think the bottom line is that any control or prohibition will only limit the law abiding citizens ability to own a gun. If you want to commit homicide you're not going to worry about gun laws.

And how do you think they will be acquiring these guns if they cannot purchase them legally?

And what do you think the negative is to outlawing or controlling the purchase of automatic firearms and high-powered rifles?

Also, if you guys are going to just throw stats around, how about some linkage to verify your claims?

Final edit: Just looked at the "rate of gun ownership" claim. Switzerland is fourth in gun ownership per capita, but they have half the number of guns than the United States does. That is absolutely insane.

http://en.wikipedia....pita_by_country

Why are you asking pointless questions?

Why should I have to answer said questions, the answers to which can easily be googled?

Why do I not care about your post?

If you are just going to throw around a bunch of questions and not actually add anything then why are you here?

[ElectronicDrug 7496]

William Unek - 21 people with an axe

Li Xianliang - 17 people with a tractor

Danilo Guades - 10 people with a knife

Yan Yanming - 9 with a knife

Mass killings will happen regardless of the laws about guns.

[Christmas 643]

I think the bottom line is that any control or prohibition will only limit the law abiding citizens ability to own a gun. If you want to commit homicide you're not going to worry about gun laws.

And how do you think they will be acquiring these guns if they cannot purchase them legally?

And what do you think the negative is to outlawing or controlling the purchase of automatic firearms and high-powered rifles?

Also, if you guys are going to just throw stats around, how about some linkage to verify your claims?

Final edit: Just looked at the "rate of gun ownership" claim. Switzerland is fourth in gun ownership per capita, but they have half the number of guns than the United States does. That is absolutely insane.

http://en.wikipedia....pita_by_country

Illegally? No matter what laws we pass for guns there will always be a black market. And if you want to tell me statistics of how 90% of illegal guns were once legal guns I would tell you that as the demand rises a supplier will meet the demand. And also I don't think limiting or restricting the sale of larger guns will help much. If you have noticed the trend the shooters tend to start off with smaller calibre weapons and stash away or use the larger ones later. If people want to kill someone with a gun all they need is a pipe and something that will strike the bullet. If you think outlawing guns will fix anything then you should outlaw bullets as well.

So because there will be a black market (assuming that these mass killers would be actively looking for it, find that black market, afford the weapons purchased there, and have no problems), we should allow automatic firearms, handguns and high powered rifles to be readily available without any question as to how they are distributed or how many. Garbage. Also, I never said to outlaw guns outright.

I also think mental health is sorely ignored in this country as well.

Love your pipe example, though. Ridiculous, but funny. Still no answer to what the negative is to banning high-powered rifles.

William Unek - 21 people with an axe

Li Xianliang - 17 people with a tractor

Danilo Guades - 10 people with a knife

Yan Yanming - 9 with a knife

Mass killings will happen regardless of the laws about guns.

Which doesn't mean anything regarding guns on their own.

[Jewinator 5000 750]

I wish you guys wouldn't throw around words like HIGH POWERED BABY KILLING FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT MACHINE GUN RIFLE. These are for the most part buzzwords used by the anti-gun lobby, and they don't seem to know what they mean either.

[Guest Fohacidal]

I wish you guys wouldn't throw around words like HIGH POWERED BABY KILLING FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT MACHINE GUN RIFLE. These are for the most part buzzwords used by the anti-gun lobby, and they don't seem to know what they mean either.

Kinda like barrel shrouds

[Christmas 643]

I wish you guys wouldn't throw around words like HIGH POWERED BABY KILLING FULLY AUTOMATIC ASSAULT MACHINE GUN RIFLE. These are for the most part buzzwords used by the anti-gun lobby, and they don't seem to know what they mean either.

I'm going to start using that entire phrase just because.

[Guest Lord Sandwich]

People think they can draw any sort of connection between the prohibition of firearms and drugs. This is a terrible strawman fallacy. Firearms are not drugs. The supply isn't being constantly consumed, driving the demand.

Bongs are like guns, and doses are like bullets.

They are not physically addictive.

Neither is meth.

Guns can not be infinitely reduced into smaller and smaller quantities to allow for easy smuggling, and they can't be divided up and sold by middlemen in the same manner.

You can buy guns online and get them decompiled and smuggled in piece by piece. Why can't there be middlemen gun dealers?

[Fate 65]

Oh yes lets blame guns, and completely ignore the fact that the fucking guy was mentally unstable. Lanza's brother Ryan reportedly told police that his sibling had autism or Asperger's syndrome, and a personality disorder.

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

[Toxygen 1885]

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

This just in, being autistic is suddenly synonymous with being evil.

[Fate 65]

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

This just in, being autistic is suddenly synonymous with being evil.

I worded it wrong, but the fact that he wasn't properly monitored/being helped by a professional led to this event.

Those with such disorders are more likely to embark on impulsive, risk-seeking behavior, in an attempt to escape feeling empty or emotionally void. Those on the autistic spectrum have a more limited emotional range and can miss social cues, making it more difficult for them to communicate and feel empathy with others. Difficulties communicating can cause frustration, which can spill over into aggression.

[Goldentongue 3616]

Why are people making the assumption that I don't support better mental health treatment and awareness? I never said that. The problem is, this still likely won't solve this issue completely. Diagnosing the depth of someone's mental issues can be difficult even for professionals, and that's assuming their's someone close enough to them to notice something is wrong in the first place or is willing to discuss the issue. Even then, what mental status will disqualify people from gun ownership? And who will enforce them? The government? Private gun companies certainly won't want anything to do en enforcing these regulations. Even that wouldn't be enough, as from what I read, Adam Lanza didn't even own the guns he used, his mother did.

Oh yes lets blame guns, and completely ignore the fact that the fucking guy was mentally unstable. Lanza's brother Ryan reportedly told police that his sibling had autism or Asperger's syndrome, and a personality disorder.

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

The implication that Aspergers was somehow a sign that he would commit an act like this is the dumbest claim I have seen in this thread yet. Please stop posting.

If people want to kill someone with a gun all they need is a pipe and something that will strike the bullet. If you think outlawing guns will fix anything then you should outlaw bullets as well.

This is probably second. Good luck killing 26 people with a homemade bootlegged pipe gun.

[Guest Fohacidal]

Why are people making the assumption that I don't support better mental health treatment and awareness? I never said that. The problem is, this still likely won't solve this issue completely. Diagnosing the depth of someone's mental issues can be difficult even for professionals, and that's assuming their's someone close enough to them to notice something is wrong in the first place or is willing to discuss the issue. Even then, what mental status will disqualify people from gun ownership? And who will enforce them? The government? Private gun companies certainly won't want anything to do en enforcing these regulations. Even that wouldn't be enough, as from what I read, Adam Lanza didn't even own the guns he used, his mother did.

Oh yes lets blame guns, and completely ignore the fact that the fucking guy was mentally unstable. Lanza's brother Ryan reportedly told police that his sibling had autism or Asperger's syndrome, and a personality disorder.

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

The implication that Aspergers was somehow a sign that he would commit an act like this is the dumbest claim I have seen in this thread yet. Please stop posting.

If people want to kill someone with a gun all they need is a pipe and something that will strike the bullet. If you think outlawing guns will fix anything then you should outlaw bullets as well.

This is probably second. Good luck killing 26 people with a homemade bootlegged pipe gun.

You are missing the point entirely. Healthcare isnt meant to label people, its meant to cure them. An overhaul in our mental healthcare system will prevent people from ever needing a "do not sale to" tag ever placed on them to begin with. And yeah we all know those werent his guns, I mentioned that like a page and a half ago.

[Fate 65]

The implication that Aspergers was somehow a sign that he would commit an act like this is the dumbest claim I have seen in this thread yet. Please stop posting.

I used the term Mentally Sick, in reference to Adam because he, like many other shooters before him were emotionally and mentally troubled. People that suffer from Aspergers syndrome sometimes have problems understanding emotions such as empathy Clearly something was fucking wrong with his brain for him to shoot 20 children dead. I never said Aspergers was a sign, but it was certainly a factor.

On top of the fact that his mother did not properly secure her firearms.

Stop implying.

How is that English Major working out for you?

[kevinbotz 143]

I'm slightly afraid to post this, so I'll first post a full disclosure.

I am a political centrist, inclined slightly towards the left. This means I am in support of more extensive firearms regulations. This also means I am a baby-eating Canadian Communist bent on world domination and the enslavement of all free people around the world.

Alright, I'm sorry if that offended anybody. But I would like to begin discussing the meaning of the Second Amendment itself.

Antonin Scalia, in an interview, elucidated the origins and the catalysts for the Second Amendment. As Dyscivist and many others have argued, the Second Amendment is a tangible representation of the maintenance of liberty, sacrosanct to the essential ethos of the America. However, I'm not certain whether this particular tenet of the Bill of Rights remains relevant today, considering its origins in the nascent, capricious years of the United States.

Scalia was asked by the interviewer whether or not the Second Amendment would allow civilians to acquire advanced weaponry such as Stinger missiles. Scalia, in his response, said:

" We’ll see. Obviously the amendment does not apply to arms that cannot be hand-carried—it’s to keep and “bear”, so it doesn’t apply to cannons—but I suppose there are hand-held rocket launchers that can bring down airplanes, that will have to be decided."

Scalia's thought process was that the Second Amendment was forged as a safeguard against government oppression. In the 1790s, government and militia both had access only to rudimentary weapons such as smoothbore muskets, and as such, the Second Amendment and the right to bear arms constituted a legitimate deterrent to tyranny, as detailed by Scalia in defining the prefatory clause of the Amendment:

"There are many reasons why the militia was thought to be “necessary to the security of a free state.” See 3 Story §1890. First, of course, it is useful in repelling invasions and suppressing insurrections. Second, it renders large standing armies unnecessary—an argument that Alexander Hamilton made in favor of federal control over the militia."

However, the vast disparity between the capabilities of the United States Armed Forces, effectively the right arm of the government in the case of insurrection, and the eclectic collection of private gun owners and militias have rendered that predicate of the Second Amendment effectively useless. Scalia, in one his opinions, essentially agrees:

"It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment ’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large.Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right."

Here, Scalia refrains from reaching the ultimate conclusion of his train of logic; the inherently anachronistic nature of the Second Amendment warrants a fundamental revision of the Amendment. And perhaps his trepidation deserves merit: such a revolutionary revision in the Constitution would not only generate massive political upheaval, but may compromise the very mandate of the American democracy, illegitimizing the foundation behind the existence of the United States. Herein lies the difficult quandary; should the integrity of the Constitution be potentially compromised for the sake of continued relevance, or should the Constitution remain unchanged, a pillar of consistency and continuity?

In the case that some of you truly believe this was a polemic attack on the Second Amendment, allow me to assure you, that in spite of my own inclinations, I wrote this without any intent to polarize opinions. If I did, I sincerely apologize. I wrote this with the wish that this may provoke further discussion and build understanding on the issue at hand, in light of the recent tragic events in Connecticut.

Once again, feel free to neg rep. We live in a free nation, and I fully acknowledge the validity of any opposing opinions.

Source: http://www.economist...2/07/gun-rights

Edited December 16, 2012 by kevinbotz

[Guest Very Disappointed In You]

This is probably second. Good luck killing 26 people with a homemade bootlegged pipe gun.

Google "garage guns".

The issue is not how easy or difficult it is kill dozens of people with a clandestine weapon, it's that restricting guns do nothing to prevent these massacres, and that gun availability isn't the root cause.

[Dojima 7619]

^AHAHa, avatar and sig.

[fatb0y 1337]

I swear to god, if anyone cries about how they should make guns illegal...

They should certainly pose stricter regulations on assault weapons and handguns.

Haven't read the thread, but stricter gun laws and regulations will not have any bearing on criminals. Because they, by definition, don't abide by the law. They are criminals, and if they want a gun, they will get a gun. I like to think our drug laws are pretty darn strict, how many crackheads are there in America?

The only people that will be affected by stricter gun laws are law abiding citizens, who won't be able to buy guns anymore, and do we really care if a law-abiding citizen has a gun?

[TeflonAssassin 63]

Why are people making the assumption that I don't support better mental health treatment and awareness? I never said that. The problem is, this still likely won't solve this issue completely. Diagnosing the depth of someone's mental issues can be difficult even for professionals, and that's assuming their's someone close enough to them to notice something is wrong in the first place or is willing to discuss the issue. Even then, what mental status will disqualify people from gun ownership? And who will enforce them? The government? Private gun companies certainly won't want anything to do en enforcing these regulations. Even that wouldn't be enough, as from what I read, Adam Lanza didn't even own the guns he used, his mother did.

Oh yes lets blame guns, and completely ignore the fact that the fucking guy was mentally unstable. Lanza's brother Ryan reportedly told police that his sibling had autism or Asperger's syndrome, and a personality disorder.

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

The implication that Aspergers was somehow a sign that he would commit an act like this is the dumbest claim I have seen in this thread yet. Please stop posting.

If people want to kill someone with a gun all they need is a pipe and something that will strike the bullet. If you think outlawing guns will fix anything then you should outlaw bullets as well.

This is probably second. Good luck killing 26 people with a homemade bootlegged pipe gun.

I wasn't trying to say that you can kill 26 people with a bootleg gun. I was trying to hint at human ingenuity and our ability to make due with the resources we have. You don't think given the time and reason that someone could invent a fully auto gun in their garage?

[Zoxopirezox Jared 15]

Why in my town? Things are different here. I little while ago it was a beautiful summer where everything was so alive and everyone was happy. I was away from my clan enjoying my location and everything about it. About 2 weeks ago, my buddy chris was killed when he was hit by a truck, i went to his funeral later that week and that was more than enough then. Now this, all these kids, people that live on the same streets as me, in the same town as me. My town feels torn, and there's nothing you can do about it. Those lives never had to be lost on friday. They were elementary students, they never had a chance. My highschool is on the same street.

There's so much wrong with what happened. The media was just putting stuff out as quick as possible and changed the story 100 times. I live here, I still don't know exactly what happened, and doubt I will soon if ever. All I know is that this is one of the worst crimes against humanity ever committed. Idk what to say, but this sucks. Everyone here has felt the shock-wave from this.

[Oreo 2073]

Why in my town? Things are different here. I little while ago it was a beautiful summer where everything was so alive and everyone was happy. I was away from my clan enjoying my location and everything about it. About 2 weeks ago, my buddy chris was killed when he was hit by a truck, i went to his funeral later that week and that was more than enough then. Now this, all these kids, people that live on the same streets as me, in the same town as me. My town feels torn, and there's nothing you can do about it. Those lives never had to be lost on friday. They were elementary students, they never had a chance. My highschool is on the same street.

There's so much wrong with what happened. The media was just putting stuff out as quick as possible and changed the story 100 times. I live here, I still don't know exactly what happened, and doubt I will soon if ever. All I know is that this is one of the worst crimes against humanity ever committed. Idk what to say, but this sucks. Everyone here has felt the shock-wave from this.

HI JARED.

On topic: The media is just doing the same thing they did for Columbine, trying to milk it as much as they can. Hell, they were even trying to contact family members of those involved and asking for permission to interview them over facebook. Why can't you just wait until the police release the information after their investigation and report on it then instead of tormenting these traumatized kids? It's pathetic.

Why are people making the assumption that I don't support better mental health treatment and awareness? I never said that. The problem is, this still likely won't solve this issue completely. Diagnosing the depth of someone's mental issues can be difficult even for professionals, and that's assuming their's someone close enough to them to notice something is wrong in the first place or is willing to discuss the issue. Even then, what mental status will disqualify people from gun ownership? And who will enforce them? The government? Private gun companies certainly won't want anything to do en enforcing these regulations. Even that wouldn't be enough, as from what I read, Adam Lanza didn't even own the guns he used, his mother did.

Oh yes lets blame guns, and completely ignore the fact that the fucking guy was mentally unstable. Lanza's brother Ryan reportedly told police that his sibling had autism or Asperger's syndrome, and a personality disorder.

B-but guns are evil! Not mentally sick people such as Adam!

The implication that Aspergers was somehow a sign that he would commit an act like this is the dumbest claim I have seen in this thread yet. Please stop posting.

If people want to kill someone with a gun all they need is a pipe and something that will strike the bullet. If you think outlawing guns will fix anything then you should outlaw bullets as well.

This is probably second. Good luck killing 26 people with a homemade bootlegged pipe gun.

You are missing the point entirely. Healthcare isnt meant to label people, its meant to cure them. An overhaul in our mental healthcare system will prevent people from ever needing a "do not sale to" tag ever placed on them to begin with. And yeah we all know those werent his guns, I mentioned that like a page and a half ago.

You can treat mental health disorders, as far as I know you can't cure them as of right now nor do i ever expect to be able to do that, due to the fact that the brain's development is a key part of it. We can't just rewrite a brain and turn it into what we know as a normal, healthy one. An overhaul in our mental healthcare system would not prevent them from having a "Do not sell to" tag on them, but would rather attach one to them while also helping them deal with the disorder itself. It's free will to take medicine, just because they're taking it doesn't mean they couldn't go off it at any point.

The implication that Aspergers was somehow a sign that he would commit an act like this is the dumbest claim I have seen in this thread yet. Please stop posting.

I used the term Mentally Sick, in reference to Adam because he, like many other shooters before him were emotionally and mentally troubled. People that suffer from Aspergers syndrome sometimes have problems understanding emotions such as empathy Clearly something was fucking wrong with his brain for him to shoot 20 children dead. I never said Aspergers was a sign, but it was certainly a factor.

On top of the fact that his mother did not properly secure her firearms.

Stop implying.

How is that English Major working out for you?

Actually, many people are making the argument that asbergers is not a social or empathatic deficiency but rather a hypersensitivity, leading to an inability to cope with these emotions.

"In 2009, a study conducted by Henry and Kamila Markram of the Brain Mind Institute in Lausanne, Switzerland, suggested that not only do individuals on the autism spectrum have empathy, but they actually feel others’ emotions too intensely to cope." Asbergers would not have been a reason for the shooting, rather another disorder or even medicine itself could have caused the shooting.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Oreo

[Oreo 2073]

double post.

Edited December 16, 2012 by Oreo