possible exploding race damage rework

[Imperium 295]

is it possible to lower the damage on suicide bomb skills (undead lord and scourge). I don't think its very fun/enjoyable to kill someone just for them to die and insta kill you (especially if you werent involved the fight but die from an explosion through a wall/floor). Maybe make the max explosion damage something like 75?

[Dakka 854]

There's nothing wrong with the damage, it punishes people who get too close regardless of whether they knew or not that they would blow up.

 

Personally, I believe all of the suicide AOE abilities are fine because all of them are countered by magic/ultimate immunity.

 

You can see which races have immunities here:

https://pastebin.com/78Vhg2K5

 

P.S. You can also buy an item for immunity too. 

[Trelvick 51]

Considering many of the suicide AOE's including the ones you mentioned are ultimates that can be countered quite easy by immune races, necklace of immunity, magic damage immunity, races that can simply tank the damage, races that can avoid the damage or stay away and so on. I don't see any reason to nerf explosions. It's the same logic that we should reduce all damage buffs to one as it is "unfun" to die to someone having extra damage than you. The whole point of the game is to find a counter for each race and every race needs a counter (or something that gives more advantage against it).

 

Edit: Also while most of my points are the same as @Dakka the point still stands.

Edited August 5, 2018 by Trelvick

[Bear-Man-Thing 203]

Stop getting close to boom boom races.

 

Problem solved.  Let's go home, boys.

[Imperium 295]

yeah but what happens when a race just bomb rushes you. its a shit feeling knowing that you either get one shot by killing him or let him kill you

 

Im curious since undead lords explosion isnt an ultimate, would an item like necklace counter it?

[Shadow 1044]

If the sucicide bomb is not an ultimate then ultimate immunity does nothing against it. You would need to try to counter with magic resist. Some bombs are too strong and the range is too large to stop it even with magic resist.

[Trelvick 51]

3 hours ago, Shadow said:

If the sucicide bomb is not an ultimate then ultimate immunity does nothing against it. You would need to try to counter with magic resist. Some bombs are too strong and the range is too large to stop it even with magic resist.

I'd disagree, there are many entangle races/bash races alone that can be used in avoiding range. Angel of Light stops a huge amount of explosive magic with only 80% immunity (stalkers/flamepred/ahmed explosions are very survivable). More to it, there are very few races (or less popular races) that don't have an ult explosion and as I suggested there are races that can tank strong explosion damage fairly well (infected, pudge, goliath to name a few). 

[Shadow 1044]

2 hours ago, Trelvick said:

I'd disagree, there are many entangle races/bash races alone that can be used in avoiding range. Angel of Light stops a huge amount of explosive magic with only 80% immunity (stalkers/flamepred/ahmed explosions are very survivable). More to it, there are very few races (or less popular races) that don't have an ult explosion and as I suggested there are races that can tank strong explosion damage fairly well (infected, pudge, goliath to name a few). 

Never said that you couldn’t stop it with entangle. Bash is a lot less predictable, but circumstance pending you can use it to stop a bomb race from getting too close. I was stating how with magic resist as high as 80% you still will die to a deadly decoy or scourge from a good distance, which in my opinion is poor design. 

[zebra 178]

Make it line of sight, ez fix

[Trelvick 51]

19 hours ago, Shadow said:

Never said that you couldn’t stop it with entangle. Bash is a lot less predictable, but circumstance pending you can use it to stop a bomb race from getting too close. I was stating how with magic resist as high as 80% you still will die to a deadly decoy or scourge from a good distance, which in my opinion is poor design. 

And as I was stating (if you read all my examples) angel of light with 80% resistance does a fair amount block out damage. I rarely die to scrouge while directly beside them on explosion death. The only time it happens is when I am at around 10 or 20 hp. I also stated there are races designed around tanking massive damage by health alone (infected/pudge to name a couple) which they themselves are affected by a race with a high dps.

 

19 hours ago, zebra said:

Make it line of sight, ez fix

(I do apologize if this was supposed to be humor)

I never understand that logic, "make it line of sight". If it is a big explosion then naturally it should go through walls (and yes technically the walls should be destroyed). Yes dying to a stray explosion is upsetting, but war 3 has such a variety of races and in addition you can see who is playing what race, you usually can be prepared or cautious of a possible explosion. Also a lot of explosion races goes through walls but not floors or ceilings thus low gravity races have a huge advantage.

[zebra 178]

Just because you're trying to justify not nerfing flame pred's explosion doesn't make your reasoning any less flawed. To preface this, I don't think anything should be nerfed since the server will complain about anything and everything. Obviously exceptions can be made for things that are straight imba.

 

As far I know, explosions are calculated based on pure range. Explosions not going through floors / ceilings are literally because they're too far away. This is literally the entire reason for people being triggered on crackhouse, because stalker kills them from the first floor. I don't see your point of low grav races having a huge or any sort of advantage 

 

To your point of 'explosions should go through walls', HE shrapnel should go through most walls, but they don't. Why? Because its balanced that way for CSGO. And if you're bringing up big explosions go through walls, they go through all walls regardless of material. Afaik steel walls are pretty resilient.

You can try to argue the whole bash / root point, but that's almost moot too. You would have to root them far enough away (which I don't even think it's possible with the new root range for night elf), and then move away if they weren't already on the cusp of your root range. What are you going to do? Not shoot them, move away and then kill them? If it's undead, they would just shoot you while you tried to move away.

 

You bring up Angel of Light pretty often, but I don't think I've ever seen you on that race. You're saying you survive most explosions unless you're at 10 to 20 health. iirc, explosions are 200+ damage when you're next to them (I'm pretty sure I've seen 250+) which means you would need like 40 health or even more. You can try to argue the whole infected / pudge point again, but that's not even what the original thread was about. Can't just bring up arbitrary points to argue something that's irrelevant. 

 

ANYWAYS, tl;dr - you're gonna need some better points if you want to defend your favorite race. To reiterate, I think everything is fine as is, but he decided to quote me so 

[Trelvick 51]

 I am not defending FP, nor do I see a reason to do that specifically. But bring your opinion into the argument, it's funner that way.

 

Second point fair with the stalker, but again with scrouge or flame pred I find a slight range above them seems to negate most of the damage, so my point of low gravity is it prevents explosive damage with certain races.

 

You are also mooting a point for no reason. You are assuming you are entangling someone right in front of you, as opposed to around a corner (incins are fun right?) or behind a wall which does prevent a gunner/explosive race from knowing your exact position. For some reason you included bash like you needed to be close for the bash effect to go off??? You bash the guy from a distance and you continue bashing him, same with slow effects. 

 

Third, do your homework. It is really easy to type in "racetop10 angel". I've played that race much more than most people on the server. Now you have a point about the health thing, but that isn't that far from 10 or 20 which is usually when I get killed from a blast. A lot of the time the blast is far enough that the resistance renders it nothing regardless of how close they are. And adding to my low gravity point, the range seems to drop dramatically on certain explosive races depending on how high or low you are from them as I have tested with this race.

 

And to your new point, the whole thread is about "possible exploding race damage rework", notice those words there. Pudge/infected are a great point for arguing for races that can block "exploding race damage" which is a part of the discussion. Can't just call points irrelevant when they specifically argue about the topic.

 

But sure reiterate the reason why you wanted to target me, "because of flame predator". While I have grown accustomed to the race, I much prefer other races now. Fact is playing a race to 300 tends to bore a person, and there is a lot of races to try on the server.

[zebra 178]

7 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

 I am not defending FP, nor do I see a reason to do that specifically

On 8/5/2018 at 6:48 PM, Trelvick said:

(stalkers/flamepred/ahmed explosions are very survivable)

 

9 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

But bring your opinion into the argument, it's funner that way.

Yeah, that's how most debates work. People with different opinions on two opposite sides. 

 

10 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

with SCOURGE* or flame pred I find a slight range above them seems to negate most of the damage, so my point of low gravity is it prevents explosive damage with certain races.

You're saying races with low gravity avoid explosions by being above them? What. You're telling me a race with low grav is going jump over undead / flame pred and kill them from above? You're going to need to explain this point because I don't see any feasible argument from this. Also, like before, I'm almost 100% sure its literally ranged based, as in the explosions radiates out spherically with diminishing damage over distance. I could be wrong, but it seems pointless to have an individual check for the z-axis to calculate damage to someone.

 

18 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

You are also mooting a point for no reason. You are assuming you are entangling someone right in front of you, as opposed to around a corner (incins are fun right?) or behind a wall which does prevent a gunner/explosive race from knowing your exact position. For some reason you included bash like you needed to be close for the bash effect to go off??? You bash the guy from a distance and you continue bashing him, same with slow effects. 

 

19 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

And to your new point, the whole thread is about "possible exploding race damage rework", notice those words there. Pudge/infected are a great point for arguing for races that can block "exploding race damage" which is a part of the discussion. Can't just call points irrelevant when they specifically argue about the topic.

You're like the people who read news headlines and freak out without reading the actual article. 

 

Imperium - "I don't think its very fun/enjoyable to kill someone just for them to die and insta kill you"

You - No dude, just play pudge or infected

Imperium - "especially if you werent involved the fight but die from an explosion through a wall/floor"

You - Bash them from far away

 

21 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

Third, do your homework. It is really easy to type in "racetop10 angel". I've played that race much more than most people on the server. 

If you type in racetop10 goddang, you'll see my name, but realistically when was the last time you've seen me play it?

 

24 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

 Now you have a point about the health thing

Thanks

 

24 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

A lot of the time the blast is far enough that the resistance renders it nothing

7 hours ago, Trelvick said:

I rarely die to scrouge while directly beside them on explosion death.

 

27 minutes ago, Trelvick said:

But sure reiterate the reason why you wanted to target me, "because of flame predator". While I have grown accustomed to the race, I much prefer other races now. Fact is playing a race to 300 tends to bore a person, and there is a lot of races to try on the server.

uh, no. It's because you decided to quote me and make a point from it. I can reiterate my reiterate

 

53 minutes ago, zebra said:

To reiterate, I think everything is fine as is, but he decided to quote me so 

 

[Trelvick 51]

Apologies for the late response. Work, game night, and "extreme" food allergies do not mix.

@zebra

Yes, I used Flame predator as one of my examples. Not specifically. It is very easy to use a race as an example when you've played it a lot. 

Also you need to explain to me how you can't kill a a race by jumping over it (angel of lights low gravity is that high) and shooting it in the face. That seems quite feasible, as for the damage. With FP the damage seems to decrease drastically even in a short distance above. I'm almost certain the damage is less like a sphere and more like a cylinder.

 

Yes I read the title and his post and it honestly sounds like we interpreted that differently the quote, "especially if you werent involved the fight but die from an explosion through a wall/floor" was in brackets and after "I don't think its very fun/enjoyable to kill someone just for them to die and insta kill you" . So by my assumption while he leans towards that answer in brackets. I still need to consider the possiblity of him talking about all explosive damage being too strong. Thus the comments related to races tanking massive explosion damage, or other races circumventing the issue by allowing you to distance yourself in range (or know where they are so you can avoid them).

 

I still play the race, I've noticed a lot of the time you aren't on when I'm on it. But then I'm also playing cho'gall while you are on or shade spawn. So idk.

 

And yes, a lot of the time I'm far away from the blast and avoiding a lot of the damage. While other times I can be directly in front of the scrouge and still survive damage. I am not quite sure what you are confused about there.

 

 

[LunaBadger 5]

There are races that don't have ultimate bombs...

 

Don't matter; get good and stay away.

Or plead for them to unlevel the bomb.

 

Depending on how I feel I do that w/ my scourge.