Human Marine team limit

[Serif The Sheriff 73]

Human Marine is currently set to a team limit of 3, this inherently isn't that big of a deal, sure it's annoying, but it's not terrible to deal with. However, the expertise on that race is REALLY good, and makes the race quite a bit stronger, and having to deal with one Marine with the expertise can be painful, but having to deal with two or three is just nuts. 

 

As I am typing this we are playing on Mirage and Nutty Dude dies on bomb, then respawns 4 times in a row to end up getting 5 or 6 kills on the ct's as they are trying to defuse. The fact that minerals carry over from map to map and respawn can be used with no real cooldown as many times in a round as they want, the expertise can get ridiculous to deal with if someone chooses to save up minerals over a few maps and doubly so if there are multiple people on one team respawning themselves non stop every round. 

 

If the expertise stays the way it is I think the race should be limited to one per team, but if it stays at 3 per team then I think minerals should no longer carry across map and the respawns should be limited per round.

[Destin 1958]

wtf??? Map to map no limit???? I thought expertises were supposed to be minor things this is huge

[zebra 178]

Demon Hunter?

[Bryan 207]

32 minutes ago, zebra said:

Demon Hunter?

that or use black mage to block a respawn but having 3 at the time seems op they can just steam roll everyone easily also their second expertise they do not get overheated easily.

Edited June 24, 2018 by infested marine

[Trelvick 51]

For the team limit I was hoping more 2 players max human marine. Because while 3 is way too crazy, 2 seems about right. 

 

For the minerals I was hoping for some kind of "mineral leak" to occur every map change. So the race would leak about 50-100 minerals per map change. The lowered respawns to four (down from 10) certainly made the race more fair. But I was hoping for more of an increase in the amount of minerals that a marine can gain and a possibility of respawning no more than 3 to 4 times a round.

 

Also black mage is fun to block marine respawns, but demon hunter is just total misery.

[Bear-Man-Thing 203]

This race may or may not have an expertise.

 

Demon hunter or black mage.

[Serif The Sheriff 73]

1 hour ago, zebra said:

Demon Hunter?

 

1 hour ago, infested marine said:

that or use black mage to block a respawn but having 3 at the time seems op they can just steam roll everyone easily also their second expertise they do not get overheated easily.

We had both of these to counter but Black Mage is only 35% chance to block, Demon Hunter is damage based so it's not always guaranteed to block, and even with people playing both these races they were still getting mulitple respawns per round

[Rootbeer 1293]

y r the resources saving and not resetting on map end like skulls do????????????????????????????????????????????????????

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[Face 1910]

Minerals were just lowered like 2 days ago to 4 respawn cap.

 

To max out minerals (200) would take 25 kills or 50 assists (or some combination of the two).

This thread is essentially complaining about a scenario that can happen 1 round per map, at absolute maximum.

[Serif The Sheriff 73]

On 6/24/2018 at 6:44 PM, Face said:

Minerals were just lowered like 2 days ago to 4 respawn cap.

 

To max out minerals (200) would take 25 kills or 50 assists (or some combination of the two).

This thread is essentially complaining about a scenario that can happen 1 round per map, at absolute maximum.

Didn't know that it had been changed.

[Im-A-Dragon 5]

I propose we re-instate 500 minerals but limit respawns to 1-2 times per round, I don't see a problem with being able to respawn and save respawns throughout, it's a cool ability, and I love to play Human Marine... Alot. However, I agree that respawning over twice in 1 round via a respawn that allows you to effectively ghost all enemy locations, and respawn when no ones looking is a bit overpowered. But at 200 minerals, I max out in a map or 2 and feel obligated to use them rather than save them. I loved that I could build up a huge nest egg then use it over time to my advantage, and feel like 200 has significantly stunted that. 

<3

Edited June 26, 2018 by Im-A-Dragon

[The Ben 187]

When is comes to my flame predator, I love the human marine when there’s others around.

[normal dude [KONGLESS] 0]

Human Marine is able to utilize his expertise in a unique way, and players aren't used to it.

 

The ability to hold a respawn until you decide to use it is extremely powerful. While he's dead the Human Marine is able to view both enemies and allies position, and is generally given a huge amount of information to work with. This, combined with good death positioning, and the general tankiness and DPS output of the race, allows him to quickly respawn and kill an unsuspecting player. As Serif stated, I respawned approx. 4 times. In those four times there were at least 3~ players on the bombsite expect during the last and maybe second to last respawn. After the first or even the second respawn you would think somebody would watch for another, but they mostly didn't. The enemy team almost all stared at the bomb after every respawn. This is not a balance issue, this is an example of players who simply aren't used to dealing with this mechanic.

 

  This sort of thing happens when players face a mechanic they're not familiar with. Take a new player and throw him against most of the races in War3. Suicide bombs, Bashing, Evasion, Increased HP. All of these mechanics are new to the player and he's unsure of how to deal with it, but over time he's able to learn what races do, and respond accordingly if he chooses to do so. This is another example of players learning to fight against a mechanic that's unique to Human Marine. There's a variety of ways to deal with respawning opponents, even some counters, but those counters don't necessarily stop it every single time. The Mirage incident is a highlight of what Human Marine is capable of if players aren't careful.

 

Expertise's in of themselves are something that boost the effectiveness of a race, and the only reason Human Marine's expertise is getting picked on is the noticeable, powerful effect it has. Other races have ridiculously strong expertise, or multiple expertise', but due to the subtle nature of them they're mostly unnoticed by a majority of players.

 

  A variety of factors contributed to this one incident: players that were unaware of the mechanic, the Human Marine's killing potential, and the amount of time and effort put into saving up the minerals. Human Marine is a really basic, but strong race. This makes it easy to pick up and play, because of this players are claiming that it's "Overpowered" or "Noobish", but it's something easily dealt with when understood. As to whether there needs to be 3 Human Marines' on one team or not is debatable. Other respawning races are limited to 1-2 per team, but they respawn themselves and/or teammates, While Human Marines' can only respawn themselves, and this is still only after players have played the race enough to earn the expertise (which is about 10~ players at the moment). The three player limit is something unique to Human Marine as it represents the mass production of marines that happens often in Starcraft, and I think taking that away would somewhat diminish the feel of the race, but that's just my opinion.

 

Also...

 

On 6/24/2018 at 6:03 PM, infested marine said:

having 3 at the time seems op they can just steam roll everyone easily also their second expertise they do not get overheated easily.

 

I'm the second highest Human Marine at level 180~ and I haven't gotten a second expertise yet, especially not one to increase the heat limit.

Edited June 27, 2018 by normal dude [KONGLESS]
Formatting and restructuring

[Serif The Sheriff 73]

On 6/26/2018 at 9:43 PM, normal dude [KONGLESS] said:

Human Marine is able to utilize his expertise in a unique way, and players aren't used to it.

This has been an expertise for awhile, there are quite a few people on the server who have dealt with it, but it was back when hardly anyone played the race and only one or two people had the expertise so it wasn't that big of an issue to deal with. We now have 5 or so people who have been playing the race on a more regular basis and who purposely try to get on teams together to play in a group with 3 of those people for sure having the expertise.

 

On 6/26/2018 at 9:43 PM, normal dude [KONGLESS] said:

The ability to hold a respawn until you decide to use it is extremely powerful.

This ^^^ is the exact opposite of what an expertise should be. Expertises were meant to be small little bonuses that players got for dedicating time to a race they enjoy. And there are definitely a lot of races that have some expertises that don't fit that, but making the argument that the expertise is extremely powerful and talking about how it changes the way the race is played so much you give more reason for something to be done about the expertise. 

 

On 6/26/2018 at 9:43 PM, normal dude [KONGLESS] said:

This sort of thing happens when players face a mechanic they're not familiar with. Take a new player and throw him against most of the races in War3. Suicide bombs, Bashing, Evasion, Increased HP. All of these mechanics are new to the player and he's unsure of how to deal with it, but over time he's able to learn what races do, and respond accordingly if he chooses to do so. This is another example of players learning to fight against a mechanic that's unique to Human Marine. There's a variety of ways to deal with respawning opponents, even some counters, but those counters don't necessarily stop it every single time. The Mirage incident is a highlight of what Human Marine is capable of if players aren't careful.

I completely disagree with this, it's not that it's a unique mechanic to Marine that people just need to learn to deal with. We are all very aware of what the race does, we knew about this before you played on this server and before you played the race, we just never had so many people playing the race and using the expertise together. Cache is a perfect example, we had as many people playing counters to marine as possible, but with 3 marines each with the expertise and all being supported by Holy Paladin and Priest, it's not that easy to shut down that comp. The races that counter respawns have a hard time keeping up with that many respawns, and even a race that would counter marine can only do so much when there 3 of them being focused by support races. The T team had 6 people at one point actively trying to counter that comp but were still having a hard time doing it not because they don't understand the mechanic, but because it's a lot to deal with.

 

On 6/26/2018 at 9:43 PM, normal dude [KONGLESS] said:

Expertise's in of themselves are something that boost the effectiveness of a race, and the only reason Human Marine's expertise is getting picked on is the noticeable, powerful effect it has. Other races have ridiculously strong expertise, or multiple expertise', but due to the subtle nature of them they're mostly unnoticed by a majority of players.

As stated above Expertises were always meant to be small bonuses, not huge buffs or things that change the way the race plays and that is exactly what the Marine expertise does. And there are a lot more races that get attacked for there expertises than you think, whether the expertise is good or not. Some just work really well with the race even if they aren't inherently strong. People complain about NE expertises all the time even though none of it's expertises are near as strong as some of the others on races. Meanwhile I think Naix has one of the top 5 strongest ones because of how well it works for it race and almost no one ever complains about that one. It's not a case of marines expertise being noticeable moreso than other races expertises, it's the strength of the expertise and the way it changes the race PLUS the fact you can have multiple people running around with such a strong expertise. Also don't forget that you get to save minerals/respawns ACROSS MAPS and literally no other race gets to do anything like that. 

 

On 6/26/2018 at 9:43 PM, normal dude [KONGLESS] said:

A variety of factors contributed to this one incident: players that were unaware of the mechanic, the Human Marine's killing potential, and the amount of time and effort put into saving up the minerals. Human Marine is a really basic, but strong race. This makes it easy to pick up and play, because of this players are claiming that it's "Overpowered" or "Noobish", but it's something easily dealt with when understood. As to whether there needs to be 3 Human Marines' on one team or not is debatable. Other respawning races are limited to 1-2 per team, but they respawn themselves and/or teammates, While Human Marines' can only respawn themselves, and this is still only after players have played the race enough to earn the expertise (which is about 10~ players at the moment).

Yet again to this point I will say that it's not a matter of players being unaware of the mechanic, and most people don't think that Marine is OP in and of itself. Marine has the most drastic change of strength for a race when it gets an expertise and that's what causes the issue here, especially when that strength is multiplied for every other marine you add to a team that has the expertise. You yourself recognize that most other respawn races are restricted to a lower amount than marine is AND they have less respawns than it does because of a single expertise.

 

On 6/26/2018 at 9:43 PM, normal dude [KONGLESS] said:

The three player limit is something unique to Human Marine as it represents the mass production of marines that happens often in Starcraft, and I think taking that away would somewhat diminish the feel of the race, but that's just my opinion.

The three player limit is 100% not unique to Marine, Star Lord is also a three per team limit and I am pretty sure there might be one more. I also don't think that they intentionally made it have that number of respawns because of Starcraft lore, you're thinking way too much into it. 

 

I get wanting to defend your favorite race and not see it get nerfed or touched, I fight tooth and nail for Night Elf almost every single time someone has asked for a nerf or it has actually been nerfed, but you have to be able to recognize when something needs to be done. Players can't always dedicate themselves to watching your dead bodies in case of a respawn or focusing all of their attention on being ready for it and people don't want to always have to be playing a counter for an expertise rather than the race itself. The fact you think that people's issue is that they just don't understand the mechanic or aren't used to it is way off.

[zebra 178]

I, for one, am glad that the current war3 meta is to shit on Human Marine. That way, people don't complain about about me playing Dante :^)

 

Whether anything gets changed or not, the war3 meta is gonna shift to hate on some other race anyways

 

[turbulance 105]

Honestly I don't care much about the Human Marine issue only thing you really need IMO is a good counter play. I don't generally get too pissy about a race if there is another race to put it in check. 

[Serif The Sheriff 73]

19 hours ago, zebra said:

I, for one, am glad that the current war3 meta is to shit on Human Marine. That way, people don't complain about about me playing Dante :^)

 

Whether anything gets changed or not, the war3 meta is gonna shift to hate on some other race anyways

 

Dante is easier to deal with than Marine with it's expertise lol. Especially when there are 3 Marines with it. 

 

18 hours ago, turbulance said:

Honestly I don't care much about the Human Marine issue only thing you really need IMO is a good counter play. I don't generally get too pissy about a race if there is another race to put it in check. 

This is the problem though, even if you play the races that would theoretically counter a respawn race like Marine, it's still really difficult when they can save up minerals to get multiple respawn chances per round. As Black Mage you only have a 35% chance to block the respawn, as Demon Hunter you have to make sure that you are dealing a majority of damage to the Marines in order to hope that it gets countered. Any race that blocks respawn can only do so much against 3 Marines with the expertise, at any given time that could potentially be 12 respawns in one round and even though I don't think we would ever see that, it's still a possibility and even with as many people as possible playing counters to it, that is a crap ton of respawns to try to block

[turbulance 105]

I just want more ways to deal with damage reduction abilities/races I don't really care about the respawning because there are more ways to deal with that then there is to deal with damage reduction.