Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
Serif The Sheriff

Night Elf Entangling Roots change

Recommended Posts

If judges entangle is so much better just play judge. Its two different races tho so it is a moot point. Like night elf has better evade than some races.

I don't know about the doors/window thing but shit ain't happening for a few days. The kd is fine and the race is fine you really just don't like that its "different" than before. I don't really see much of a reason to change it myself and no one else has really mirrored your concerns (much the opposite really, people enjoy not getting 100% rekt while at the same time it still serves its purpose of pooping on fast races and Knifers)

Judge isn't my favorite race on the server, NE is, everyone knows that. And it's fine if a fix will have to wait because I know you are busy with your move. The face that it is "different" isn't what bothers me at all, like I have said, if you make it radial and remove the tracer then it will be fine and that is different than how it used to be, it being different isn't the issue here. Not to mention that for almost a year I had tried telling you guys to fix the ult so that it didn't lift people into the air and I also suggested removing the tracer line on several different occasions before I left and was always told that that was too much of a nerf or it wasn't necessary. So don't think I hate it because it's different and my precious NE got changed and I am just not used to it. The issue is that I am now running into situations constantly where I can see someone and they are in my LOS and I still can't use the ult even though it's supposed to work for LOS. I have been playing the race since I got back and have been perfectly fine with the LOS change until now since I am starting to run into so many issues with the ult not working when I can clearly see the person.

 

As far as people saying they like NE the way it is, those are only the people who play against the race and they love that it's easier to fight it since the nerf so of course they are going to tell you everything is just fine and nothing needs to be done. Anyone else I have talked to who plays NE on a regular basis has agreed that the LOS change was a little too much and it has made the race way less of a threat.

 

I spent 8 years doing war3 balancing and even though my source server has a different balance than this server, I still know how balancing things works and you can bet your ass that if you make changes to any of my favorite races and I don't agree with it then I am going to be on the forums telling you so, whether the change is a buff or a nerf. For example, you recently buffed Naix and I told you you shouldn't have done that and it was unnecessary because the race was strong enough as is especially with the expertise. Now that KJ has it's ability I have stopped asking for any sort of buff on that race, especially long jump, because the race is more balanced now and it doesn't need touched at the moment. NE has gotten nerfed several times now and even though I agreed that the Entangle probably needed a nerf, making it a LOS while other races keep their radials is something I don't agree with because the tracer line was always the main issue with those races because it's a free wallhack. As far as people moving and getting entangled, as long as they are on the ground and get entangled it doesn't throw off their accuracy the same way them getting entangled in the air does and there are still several guns that maintain accuracy no matter how they get entangled. What would be the harm in changing NE's entangle to a radial and removing the tracer for just a week and seeing how that effects things? Because if you change it to that and it goes back to being too strong then fine, I will fully support making it back into a LOS.

 

That's all I have to say for now, but you all know that as long as I continue to disagree I will continue ask for it to be changed unless you can convince me the change is unneeded or the rest of the races get balanced to where it's not needed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Judge isn't my favorite race on the server, NE is, everyone knows that. And it's fine if a fix will have to wait because I know you are busy with your move. The face that it is "different" isn't what bothers me at all, like I have said, if you make it radial and remove the tracer then it will be fine and that is different than how it used to be, it being different isn't the issue here. Not to mention that for almost a year I had tried telling you guys to fix the ult so that it didn't lift people into the air and I also suggested removing the tracer line on several different occasions before I left and was always told that that was too much of a nerf or it wasn't necessary. So don't think I hate it because it's different and my precious NE got changed and I am just not used to it. The issue is that I am now running into situations constantly where I can see someone and they are in my LOS and I still can't use the ult even though it's supposed to work for LOS. I have been playing the race since I got back and have been perfectly fine with the LOS change until now since I am starting to run into so many issues with the ult not working when I can clearly see the person.

 

As far as people saying they like NE the way it is, those are only the people who play against the race and they love that it's easier to fight it since the nerf so of course they are going to tell you everything is just fine and nothing needs to be done. Anyone else I have talked to who plays NE on a regular basis has agreed that the LOS change was a little too much and it has made the race way less of a threat.

 

I spent 8 years doing war3 balancing and even though my source server has a different balance than this server, I still know how balancing things works and you can bet your ass that if you make changes to any of my favorite races and I don't agree with it then I am going to be on the forums telling you so, whether the change is a buff or a nerf. For example, you recently buffed Naix and I told you you shouldn't have done that and it was unnecessary because the race was strong enough as is especially with the expertise. Now that KJ has it's ability I have stopped asking for any sort of buff on that race, especially long jump, because the race is more balanced now and it doesn't need touched at the moment. NE has gotten nerfed several times now and even though I agreed that the Entangle probably needed a nerf, making it a LOS while other races keep their radials is something I don't agree with because the tracer line was always the main issue with those races because it's a free wallhack. As far as people moving and getting entangled, as long as they are on the ground and get entangled it doesn't throw off their accuracy the same way them getting entangled in the air does and there are still several guns that maintain accuracy no matter how they get entangled. What would be the harm in changing NE's entangle to a radial and removing the tracer for just a week and seeing how that effects things? Because if you change it to that and it goes back to being too strong then fine, I will fully support making it back into a LOS.

 

That's all I have to say for now, but you all know that as long as I continue to disagree I will continue ask for it to be changed unless you can convince me the change is unneeded or the rest of the races get balanced to where it's not needed.

Still sounds like a bunch of convoluted bunk just to say, "It's not the way I want it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Still sounds like a bunch of convoluted bunk just to say, "It's not the way I want it.

They made the ult weaker than they had to to deal with what everyone keeps saying was the problem. I don't have that much of an issue with the LOS except that there are several situations where even if they are in your LOS it won't work, but if it was a radial it would still work just fine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They made the ult weaker than they had to to deal with what everyone keeps saying was the problem. I don't have that much of an issue with the LOS except that there are several situations where even if they are in your LOS it won't work, but if it was a radial it would still work just fine.

How do you figure making it radial changes anything? How does removing the tracer solve anything?

In the following image, we can see you, Serif The Sheriff, in the middle there as a Night Elf, surrounded by other players. Some are behind walls, some aren't. Those behind walls probably don't know where you are, since you know, there are walls there. Some who aren't behind walls might not be looking in your direction. Orange is how the ultimate works currently, and Blue is how you want it to work. Remove tracers then you have potentially a bunch of random people in the area of effect who could possibly be entangled, not knowing at all what happened, and having the Night Elf player not even know where they are.

5H3xMV9.png

The way it works currently, if the player on the left is behind a wall, he is unaffected, and the pepe on the right will be the one to be entangled. The way you want it is the way it was originally, just with tracers removed. So, lets say tracers were removed with a line-of-sight based system as we have it currently: That player hidden on the left would probably still be confused, and the Night Elf who initiated the entangle would probably not even be able to take advantage of his ultimate.

Your suggested fix is not really a fix at all—It's probably the worst thing that can be done to entangle outside of altering the range or duration. This whole issue begins seeming less and less like an issue and more and more like one, singular player not liking a much needed change made to his favorite race.

Molecule's evade got nerfed from 35% to 30% recently, and you know how much I whore that race, but you know, I don't mind some balance on a race that is quite clearly overpowered.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The reason I am asking for the switch is because even though it's LOS, because of the way grates, doors, and windows are coded in the game, I can't entangle people through any of those things even though I can clearly see them which means that the ult isn't 100% LOS like it should be. Because coding the ult to ignore that kind of stuff can be difficult, changing it to the radial will allow people to entangle through that stuff no issue. Also changing it to the radial gives it more advantage because if you can here someone about to walk around a corner, or if you here them rescuing a hostage, planting a bomb, etc... you can entangle and know you have kept them from going anywhere until you have time to do something about it or get into a better position. Or if you here someone about to walk into  a rescue zone but can't actually see them yet you can entangle to stop them until you can move to where you can see them. All of that while still not having the wallhacks from the tracer. It would make the ult more usefull and would solve the issue with the doors, grates, and windows and it still wouldn't be near as OP as with the tracer. Sure, with people walking around corners you can camp and then entangle, or if you hear them doing objective you can move to where you can entangle them and there isn't too much of a difference between radial and LOS at that point, and because there isn't a huge difference in how strong the ult would be between radial with no tracer, and LOS, why not just make it a radial with no tracer so that you don't have to deal with the issue of not being able to entangle someone through a window when you can see them?

 

Let's say I am on Office in the little room to the right of CT spawn, if I can see the hostage rescuer running under those windows, with the way the ult works now I have to either jump out the window a little to entangle him, or try to beat him to the entrance to entangle him and either way that's a situation that would be cutting it pretty close. If it was a radial thing I wouldn't have to worry about jumping out the window or having to race to the entrance, I can keep him in place while I either jump out the window or move to the entrance and it becomes a completely different situation.

 

Or lets say on Aztec you are underneat the walkway and the bomb carrier is running across the bridge really fast or longjumping across, sure you can shoot him and try to get a kill, but if he is moving really fast that isn't an easy thing to do for most players and even though you can see him, with LOS you can't entangle him to try and make sure he doesn't get the plant. With radial you would be able to entangle him and have a better chance at getting the kill and preventing him from making the plant.

 

That being said, do you understand now why I think it should be radial with no tracer? It wouldn't change the way the ult works too drastically because as you said, without the tracer if someone gets entangled that the NE doesn't know is there then there is 0 harm done and nothing at all comes from that. But with the radial there wouldn't be issues with windows, doors, grates, walkways, etc... To me it just makes way more sense to have it be the radial without tracer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's already fixed but you have it set in your head that it isn't.

Then why is it that when I can see people I still can't entangle them if they are on the other side of a door, a grate, a window, or wooden planks? I am supposed to be able to entangle them as long as I can see them and that's not working 100% of the time. It makes so much more sense for it to be a radial with no tracer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread hurt my head because Serif kept bumping it but after further thought, his change would actually increase the skill ceiling and floor on the ult -- something I always regard as a good change.

 

The change would punish ult spammers. Mashing your button would entangle people you wouldn't even know are around you. Sure you could spam your ult until it goes off but you have no idea where they are; they could be on either sides of the doorway ahead of you, a sensei flying high above you, or an enemy A hiding in a corner next to enemy B who's shooting at you (but since A's closer and you were spamming ult, you hit him and not B who's slightly out of range). With this change, you would then need to use your ult more intelligently -- as a panic button against an enemy, ambushing an enemy that you hear around a corner, etc. More importantly, it'll solve Serif's grate/window/plank problems and ease his qualms about the previous ult changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How does it increase the skill ceiling? Push b tuns spamming ult, it goes off, "someone is in b tuns". People still just gonna spam while they push... Line draw just makes it so neither player has a dead giveaway of where the other is. And I wouldn't call "using it as a panic button for a pushing enemy" a panic button. You camp a hallway, hear footsteps, hit ult and peek and collect your free kill as you know where they are and they can't move and they don't know where you are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like it how it is now. the AOE just basically gave you free kills of people you really didnt know where they were or never even knew they were there. You may not like that you cant use it through a solid object, but the thing is most of those solid objects can be moved out of your way. I could easily make a big fit about the fact stalker's explosion is alot better then all the others, but i dont because i actually learned how to better use the death boom to kill people who i know are there and it made me a better player.

 

TLDR, use the LOS and dont complain that NE isnt as easy as you want it to be.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to just make it a cone in front of you, non-LOS? It sounds like that fixes both Serrif's issue with it (which, tbh, seems pretty valid. Being able to physically see someone in front of you but having your ulti tell you you can't is kinda borked) while keeping the general spirit of the nerf. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to just make it a cone in front of you, non-LOS? It sounds like that fixes both Serrif's issue with it (which, tbh, seems pretty valid. Being able to physically see someone in front of you but having your ulti tell you you can't is kinda borked) while keeping the general spirit of the nerf.

This is what I was gonna look at when I get back to a PC tonight or tomorrow... Like I said a day or two ago nothing can happen for a few days. I'd like to look at fixing the window/door thing though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we can also 'increase the skill ceiling' by keeping it how it is, gettign rid of tracers, and making it go on cooldown even if you dont entangle an enemy!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

we can also 'increase the skill ceiling' by keeping it how it is, gettign rid of tracers, and making it go on cooldown even if you dont entangle an enemy!

+1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not that I have a stance either way, but the argument of raising a skill ceiling for a *starting* race doesn't seem to coincide with the fact that its for newer players to start getting levels on. The four starter races are all strong in their own regard, some moreso than others (seeing as human alliance, orc, and NE are all played more by seasoned players than undead scourge), but I feel that they shouldn't be nerfed beyond viability as they function as races which players can always fall back upon to play with reasonable kd odds (not to say ne has).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is it possible to just make it a cone in front of you, non-LOS? It sounds like that fixes both Serrif's issue with it (which, tbh, seems pretty valid. Being able to physically see someone in front of you but having your ulti tell you you can't is kinda borked) while keeping the general spirit of the nerf. 

Thought of this earlier today while I was at work, this would 100% solve every issue. Because not only does this now allow entangling through doors, windows, etc... this can also be used if you can hear someone moving around and need to entangle them without being able to see them, just remove the tracer line and I think this would be perfect for the race. It wouldn't lose it's usefulness and it wouldn't be OP because of the tracer.

 

As far as people spamming, a cooldown for missing could help. For example, if you put a 5 second cooldown (on misses, not hits obviously) then it will keep people from just spamming it and they will have to be a little more aware of what is around them before they use the ult. And the reason I say just 5 seconds is because if someone is in a situation where they can see who they want to entangle but that person is just outside the range they could get really screwed up by a miss cooldown just for not knowing the range perfectly.

Edited by Serif The Sheriff

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the tracer is a two way train, I hope you understand. It tends to help the entangled quite a bit more then the entangler. The tracer will definitely stay, regardless of what we do with the skill. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the tracer is a two way train, I hope you understand. It tends to help the entangled quite a bit more then the entangler. The tracer will definitely stay, regardless of what we do with the skill. 

I know that, but everyone always complains about the tracer making the skill too op because it shows the NE where everyone is at. If you look at previous threads I have argued with that point countless times because even though it does show the NE where they are at it also shows the entangled person where the NE is

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I know that, but everyone always complains about the tracer making the skill too op because it shows the NE where everyone is at. If you look at previous threads I have argued with that point countless times because even though it does show the NE where they are at it also shows the entangled person where the NE is

 

I pretty much no-life the server, aaaand never hear anyone complain about the tracer.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Restore formatting

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...