The Gnat, should it stay or should it go?

[Vexium 35]

its not intended to get kills. it gets some assists, and it gets kills on low hp opponents. but it works as support and it does that very well. i dont see whats wrong with that.

[Rootbeer 1293]

A lot of people are mentioning teamwork. Besides ghoul and his charismatic frenzies of "CALLING ALL ORCS, YEAH", when was the last time anyone's actually seen teams rushing as one? Or sending 1 player to A while the rest of the team goes B? Our server's a pub, there's literally 0 communication going on -- unless you're playing with a friend or struck a deal to stick with someone, you're probly going out on your own in an attempt to kill as many people as you can before you die on the server. Besides that, there's also the point of our server having all talk on. I wouldn't mind a few maps having all talk off: de_dust2 comes to mind when I see/hear people actually attempting to coordinate a tryhard attempt to win. (side note: is it possible to have a de_dust2_sG where we have all chat automatically set to off?)

 

tl;dr: Our server's a pub with all talk on, coordination and teamwork cannot be an argument for killing this race.

[HCMikey 248]

its not intended to get kills. it gets some assists, and it gets kills on low hp opponents. but it works as support and it does that very well. i dont see whats wrong with that.

 

I want to cunt-punt you so hard for your idealized view of wcs. How I envy you so much man...

Edited January 27, 2014 by HornyCat

[Eddy 3887]

I want to cunt-punt you so hard for your idealized view of wcs.

but he's right

[Ika 320]

I mean, if you want annoying, just bring back The Abyss. I still don't know how that race worked but fuck if it wasn't one of the most annoying things about wcs2.

[Vexium 35]

idk where u 2 have been but playing with your team is what happens the vast majority of the time on this "pub" server. how else do you think holy paladin wins for the team single-handedly? he heals and rezzes teammates. when you want to win, you play with your team. sure, ur after ur own kills, but this race levels through support plays and feeds off having another teammate shoot at his targets

 

why is your argument that teamwork shouldnt exist n therefore we should remove something that encourages it? that doesnt make much sense.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Vexium

[HCMikey 248]

 

 

idk where u 2 have been but playing with your team is what happens the vast majority of the time on this "pub" server.

 

Yeah...no

 

Please don't make me tell you what is wrong with this

 

how else do you think holy paladin wins for the team single-handedly? he heals and rezzes teammates.

 

You really need to learn how to differentiate between active teamwork and passive teamwork. This case is the latter. I don't even know why I'm calling it teamwork when you don't even need teamwork to shoot someone in the head and press your ultimate key every 60 seconds. Everything falls on you to help out your teammates, not the other way around like you think it does. If you think screaming for the guy your shooting at to stay still or telling them to turn around and run back so you can hit them with your bullets is teamwork, then you're completely mistaken. And at least holy paladin has a way to kill shit when all else fails.

 

Also, single handedly? Really now?

 

 

why is your argument that teamwork shouldnt exist n therefore we should remove something that encourages it? that doesnt make much sense.

 

 This statement makes absolutely no sense and I,rootbeer nor any other person arguing against the issue have said anything about hindering teamwork. We are all for teamwork, but the server does nothing to encourage that, and it's funny that we keep trying to force this idea of teamwork happening on the server when it rarely does.

 

1. All talk is on. Immediately kills any type of vocal teamwork.
2. Ghosting is prohibited (What do you know? I guess this isn't comp after all)
3. Pub server with 28 slots and people constantly talking over you
4. Only time you can get down some form of teamwork is during freeze time where you can type in team chat about plans,etc
5. Nobody is going to team chat as a gnat in the heat of a firefight so that you can coordinate an attack on someone, stop glorifying this idea of coordination. It's going to get you nowhere. Only time I see this happening is in a 3v3 situation or less, this is non existant when there are a bunch of people alive.

Do you see now why the race goes against the direction of our wcs server? The server hinders teamwork and so creating a race like gnat, which is designed to be a support/coordination/teamwork race,  falls really short and ultimately, as I've said before, the execution of the race fails. This is just one of the many problems with gnat. So please, stop using the "teamwork and coordination" argument for Gnat and many other races to come, it's unfounded and weak.

Edited January 27, 2014 by HornyCat

[Vexium 35]

except that you're wrong. teamwork happens all the time on the server. maybe u just bait ur teammates all the time. great for you. vast majority of us play actively, at least in the minimal sense of shooting the same target if that is the only available target on-screen.

 

your argument boils down to this: the server hinders teamwork, so team-oriented classes are bad classes. that doesn't make sense. it's a team game at heart no matter what you do. theres players you dont shoot at who shoot the same people ur shooting.

 

the gnat works effectively at baiting and disarming a potential target that your team can then shoot at.

 

what supposed "direction" for the server are you implying? that each race should be able to stand on its own and get as many kills as possible? oh wait, paladin, priest, blood mage, and any race with some degree of support ability inherently functions against that "direction." guess we should throw out lurker while we're at it, too, since it relies on killing opponents while their team distracts the enemies from noticing them.

 

face it, you just don't like the race. your case against teamplay as a decisive element of class abilities is nonsense. in the end, cs is a team game, whether you acknowledge that fact or not.

 

or i guess when i get everyone to pass me bomb on de_dolls to plant as sensei that isn't teamwork, right? we win every round when that happens and people just do it for fun, right? oh wait. its a team game, and they want the win that they share with their team. for more money, points, and xp. not to mention kills.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Vexium

[Rootbeer 1293]

your argument boils down to this: the server hinders teamwork, so team-oriented classes are bad classes.

 

Sorry if my point isn't being made clear, mojitos are OP. My post about teamwork was a counterargument for people arguing in favor of keeping gnat because it's easy to kill if you use teamwork.

 

 

what supposed "direction" for the server are you implying?

 

I use the term direction because in our past, we had to get another server for our cs:s wcs server because we had an engineer who decided he wanted to create fancy races with unique abilities and many, many different effects. These races were relatively less skill oriented and each had their own way to gain cheesy kills. Imagine a knifer pressing a button that automatically blinks him behind you for a insta-backstab no matter where you are on the map.

Our other engineers, however, felt we should have more traditional races -- ones that only augmented normal play with movement speed buffs, vamp, invis, all that jazz. And so our "server's direction" was coined as each server went their separate ways. I'm sure you can guess which views our current engineers follow. Not saying gnat has OP skills but its concept clearly comes from the other server's direction, an engineer creating this thread with its title simply proves it.

[HCMikey 248]

 

except that you're wrong. teamwork happens all the time on the server. maybe u just bait ur teammates all the time. great for you. vast majority of us play actively, at least in the minimal sense of shooting the same target if that is the only available target on-screen.

 

 

 

No, it does not happen "all the time." Play comp if you want a grasp of what teamwork is. I understand wcs isn't going to have the amount of teamwork that comp is going to have because of their nature but please don't lecture me on teamwork and when it happens because it definitely doesn't happen all the time as you claim.

 

 

 

your argument boils down to this: the server hinders teamwork, so team-oriented classes are bad classes. that doesn't make sense. it's a team game at heart no matter what you do. theres players you dont shoot at who shoot the same people ur shooting.

 

How did you get that conclusion from my original premise, lol? I want teamwork to happen as much as the next guy so when I see a team-oriented race being on the server, I want it done right.

 

 

 

what supposed "direction" for the server are you implying? that each race should be able to stand on its own and get as many kills as possible? oh wait, paladin, priest, blood mage, and any race with some degree of support ability inherently functions against that "direction." guess we should throw out lurker while we're at it, too, since it relies on killing opponents while their team distracts the enemies from noticing them.

 

 

Each race should be able to stand on it's own so that if I were to pick any two races on the server and put them against each other, they both would have a chance of killing one another; however, that second part about getting as much kills as possible is just exaggeration. I've never said anything about that and you're just spinning words now.

 

Look at my previous post about active and passive teamwork. Also, I don't think you understand what I mean by "direction" since you're one of our fairly newer players.

 

 

 

face it, you just don't like the race. your case against teamplay as a decisive element of class abilities is nonsense. in the end, cs is a team game, whether you acknowledge that fact or not.

 

Yeah...that's definitely not it. Once again, I'll refer you to my previous post on my position about this, but just to reiterate, my case isn't against teamplay. You're jumping to conclusions again.

 

 

My main problem with the race is its ability to kill. It's the first race on our server that has this problem. If there can be something added to make it viable, then I don't mind, but as it stands, nobody is going to pick this race over infected, sensei, or takeno because the truth is these races play better support than gnat even though they aren't even meant to be support races.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  Imagine a knifer pressing a button that automatically blinks him behind you for a insta-backstab no matter where you are on the map.

 

 

AIN'T NOTHIN THAT YOU CAN DO 'GENSTA SHADOW FLEA  

Edited January 27, 2014 by HornyCat

[Rayne 4478]

You gain XP for disarms and using your ultimate so level annoy and pester first to make it easier to level this race.

 

So your advice on a race that does 1 damage per hit, is level the disarm skill over the evasion and speed skills... you'll never level the bloody thing.

 

I agree with all of the negatives here, it's a shit to level, it's a shit to play against if you've just gone 3 rounds in a row buying a new gun because some prick keeps making you drop it...and you can't get kills.

 

Like others before me have said, all this race is going to cause, is people to leave the server. 

 

Pointless race, pointless thread, this should never have been added in the first place. 

Edited January 27, 2014 by Rayne

[Vexium 35]

alright, i get where ur coming from. i still think it has a place on the server, but i can see the point being that it cant technically get kills.

 

but then you're still saying that you need to be able to get kills to be a viable race. say that to the paladins who camp spawn to rezz teammates and just heal through the game, because they want to win rounds. gnat serves a very similar purpose, and no, infected/sensei/takeno definitely do not do a better job of support. played right, this race is by far the strongest "support" role on the server, excluding holy paladin.

Edited January 27, 2014 by Vexium

[Rayne 4478]

alright, i get where ur coming from. i still think it has a place on the server, but i can see the point being that it cant technically get kills.

 

but then you're still saying that you need to be able to get kills to be a viable race. say that to the paladins who camp spawn to rezz teammates and just heal through the game, because they want to win rounds. gnat serves a very similar purpose, and no, infected/sensei/takeno definitely do not do a better job of support. played right, this race is by far the strongest "support" role on the server, excluding holy paladin.

 

Yes but Paladins can still get kills, if there is a team of 8 left against a gnat...what is going to happen...

 

A race that can't create it's own kills has no place on a game based on killing...it's a ridiculous concept to even think of, why would anybody want to play it in the first place.

 

Save all this bullshit back and forth tennis match, and take the damn race off the server. 

[centran 4457]

Yes but Paladins can still get kills, if there is a team of 8 left against a gnat...what is going to happen...

 

A race that can't create it's own kills has no place on a game based on killing...it's a ridiculous concept to even think of, why would anybody want to play it in the first place.

 

Save all this bullshit back and forth tennis match, and take the damn race off the server. 

 

I just witnessed a gnat take on 6 and win thanks to planting the bomb and pestering anyone that tried to disarm. The pester slapped them far enough away that they stopped disarming. By the time they killed the gnat it was too late.

 

But anyway, to combat the problem of being a lone gnat how about a psycho ability? Where if there is less then X teammates you do more damage for a short duration when the ability is activated

[HCMikey 248]

I just witnessed a gnat take on 6 and win thanks to planting the bomb and pestering anyone that tried to disarm. The pester slapped them far enough away that they stopped disarming. By the time they killed the gnat it was too late.

 

But anyway, to combat the problem of being a lone gnat how about a psycho ability? Where if there is less then X teammates you do more damage for a short duration when the ability is activated

 

I'm not denying it's utility. That clutch situation was probably 6 baddies and 1 good gnat, but this never happens enough to warrant and validate the current state of Gnat

Also, if you are going to go in that direction of making its knife damage inversely proportional to how many teammates you have, make it a passive thing and not an ability.

 

For example: 

1. 100-80% of teammates left = 5 knife dmg ( The following are left click only)
2. 79-60% of teammates left = 10 knife dmg 
3. 59-40% of teammates left = 15 knife dmg
4. 39-20% of teammates left = 20 knife dmg
5. 19-0% of teammates left = 25 knife dmg

Edited January 27, 2014 by HornyCat

[Rayne 4478]

 

I'm not denying it's utility. That clutch situation was probably 6 baddies and 1 good gnat, but this never happens enough to warrant and validate the current state of Gnat

Also, if you are going to go in that direction of making it's knife damage inversely proportional to how many teammates you have, make it a passive thing and not an ability.

 

For example: 

1. 100-80% of teammates left = 1 knife dmg ( The following are left click only)
2. 79-60% of teammates left = 5 knife dmg 
3. 59-40% of teammates left = 10 knife dmg
4. 39-20% of teammates left = 15 knife dmg
5. 19-0% of teammates left = 20 knife dmg

 

 

^This, but if this was the case you'd need to reduce the % of disarm and the speed of +attack for ultimate. 

Edited January 27, 2014 by Rayne

[HCMikey 248]

^This, but if this was the case you'd need to reduce the % of disarm and the speed of +attack for ultimate. 

 

In my opinion, disarm and attack speed should scale up exactly the same way I mentioned knife damage scaling in my previous post. As less teammates are alive on your team, the higher the values on disarm and attack speed become. In a 1v5 situation, gnat should just be straight on cocaine with something like 50% disarm and 50% extra attack speed.

Edited January 27, 2014 by HornyCat

[Wintergreen 1603]

I've seen it work as a team player once really. We got rushed early in the round in our spawn and he held 5 of us there without guns until a goliath and some other faggots arrived to finish us. other than that the race is pretty derp.

[centran 4457]

The disarm has been lowered.

Also I have introduced gnat on gnat viloence. Gnats will do normal damage to each other.

[Master Chadron 279]

Truly a disgusting race meant solely for griefing psycopaths.

 

Please remove. We have enough annoying sprinting disarming invisible knife races already. Knife races have gone way overboard a long time ago and this is completely idiotic.

 

lol at mentioning "teamwork" in the most disorganized clusterfuck of a server i've ever played on (not saying that's a bad thing)

Edited January 27, 2014 by Master Chadron

[centran 4457]

I think this is a great race becuase people either love it or rage and it is pretty 50/50.

 

Is there anyone meh about it or on the fence?

[HCMikey 248]

I think this is a great race becuase people either love it or rage and it is pretty 50/50.

 

Is there anyone meh about it or on the fence?

 

Adding things like a gnat being able to kill a gnat is pointless. It's an unnecessary addition. Go with the direction I stated by making it stronger as your teammates die. It goes from being a support only race to a support/clutch race and by the manner you mentioned the 6v1 gnat clutched, I don't see why you wouldn't want to add this. More people will begin to play the race and once they max it, they will flock back to it because it finally will have something to offer.

Edited January 27, 2014 by HornyCat

[centran 4457]

Adding things like a gnat being able to kill a gnat is pointless.

 

Was just an idea as another counter to the gnat. Plus if you get the rare even of a 1v1 with gnat on gnat then it will be a long match.

[turbulance 105]

This race needs to go the fuck away /rant

[Vexium 35]

i like hornycat's idea, but i thnik the race is fine as is.