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Yunki

Cruz vs Sander Healthcare Debate

48 posts in this topic

Starts at around 7:00 -

 

 

Haven't finished watching it yet, however I feel Cruz has made stronger point compared to Bernie. What do you guys think is the future for America's healthcare? Who do you think won this debate?

@Travesty they bring up Canada a good bit, if you have time, care to comment if you know anything about it?

Edited by Yunki

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The whole debate just jumps to which opinion do you have on healthcare. Is it a right that everyone should have, or should people be able to have access to cheaper healthcare? Personally, I'd rather my tax dollars not go to health care. I'd rather I get the choice to choose my own health care company, stick with that company, for a good affordable price. Especially, with being in the Military, once I'm out of my parents healthcare, I'm just going to go with Tricare (Military health care) anyway, because that's like the best healthcare out there. 

Some people might think different though, and would rather more money be taken out of there taxes, and them instantly given healthcare. That's just not me though.

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2 hours ago, Ironic said:

The whole debate just jumps to which opinion do you have on healthcare. Is it a right that everyone should have, or should people be able to have access to cheaper healthcare? Personally, I'd rather my tax dollars not go to health care. I'd rather I get the choice to choose my own health care company, stick with that company, for a good affordable price. Especially, with being in the Military, once I'm out of my parents healthcare, I'm just going to go with Tricare (Military health care) anyway, because that's like the best healthcare out there. 

Some people might think different though, and would rather more money be taken out of there taxes, and them instantly given healthcare. That's just not me though.

 

You claim to not want money being taken out of your taxes for healthcare, yet you plan on using a government managed single-payer healthcare plan that's funded by tax payers. A healthcare plan you even admit is the best healthcare out there for you.

 

What you plan on using is exactly what Bernie is proposing for the rest of the country.

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How Ironicam I right?

 

 

Watching debate now, thanks for sharing.

 

Edit: What an entertaining debate! Where they aren't even attacking each other. Both are very charismatic and even funny lol. You can tell they've been in the game a long time. Would have loved to see Bernie go up against The Donald in the presidential. But this has been great so far.

 

IMO Bernie won the debate on pre-existing conditions. Ted only said that if you're already covered you will stay covered, which is great... However if you were to get cancer or any other terrible disease, there is a chance that you won't get covered (if you aren't already covered), as Bernie pointed out. I'm 30 mins in the video so far.

 

Reading along the fact-checking while listening to the debate: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/feb/07/fact-checking-ted-cruz-bernie-sanders-health-care-/

 

 

Ted Cruz said that "52,000 Canadians left Canada to get health care in the United States and other countries" as his argument to show that the Canadian Healthcare system is broke and the Americans should not use it.

 

Firstly, if my math is correct, this is less than one-third a percent of Canadians (0.0015)... talk about an insignificant number lol. Secondly, this report he used for his claim was funded by "The Fraser Institute, a public policty think-tank based in B.C., has long been a proponent of more private options in Canadian health care." Thirdly, it is estimated that over half of those people that left Canada, were from Ontario. Coincidentally enough, "in Windsor, Ont., which borders Detroit, patients are sometimes sent to Detroit for treatment and in some cases, the cost is covered by the province." It's a bit odd that a big number like that stands out from only one province if Nation-wide there is an issue with Canadian Healthcare.

 

Now people might go down for a specialized injury but that's not because our healthcare system is bad. That's because they want to see the best doctor they possibly can and if that best possible doctor is in the states, if they can afford it they will go to it. For instance, my girlfriends sister went down to Atlanta to receive concussion treatment from Sydney Crosby's doctor because she wanted the best due to her reoccuring concussions. She was still covered at the same provincial rates she would pay here but because it was more expensive to see the specialist in Atl, she had to get private insurance to pay the rest of the bill.

 

The government doesn't tell us which doctor we can and can't see though and this argument that Ted is making doesn't make sense to me.

 

 

It would appear that the Republicans and Ted Cruz will argue something that is good for me. Rather than a system that is good for all. The argument I see from a lot of Americans make is me, me, me. Why should I be paying for their health bill through my taxes? Especially when I'm already covered with my own plan? For us in Canada, a national health care system is the best way of providing health care to all. Yes there are complications and our Canadian system isn't perfect and definitely needs some tweaks. However it is comforting to know that if something were to happen to me, I don't have to worry being covered because all of us here in Canada are helping foot the bill. It is a belief that we should all have the right to healthcare and to pay that through our taxes is the right thing to do.

 

Whereas in the states, if you're already well off, why worry about the people below that can't afford private health insurance? But I think this is the capitalist way of thinking that is so prevalent in the states. I'm rising to the top, why should I be obligated to help anyone else?

 

Sure I might be able to afford my own health care through a private insurance company if it's available. But at what point in my life would I start to get coverage if I'm healthy right now? Like many, most wait until they're sick to worry about paying for their health care bill. I can't imagine not having coverage, getting the news I have cancer and will need treatment in order to be healthy again, and then having to go to a private insurance company hoping I can get a good plan. Why would they give me a plan if it's not in their financial interests to do so? Bernie makes a good point on that and I think that's what's is so comforting to know when you live in Canada. I'm glad I never have to worry about that.

 

 

 

 

But man, I wish these were the presidential debates we saw. Ted Cruz is definitely a great debater and I think he'd make a damn good defense lawyer. It would have been interesting to see him and Bernie go head to head for three debates.

Edited by Travesty

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4 hours ago, Ironic said:

The whole debate just jumps to which opinion do you have on healthcare. Is it a right that everyone should have, or should people be able to have access to cheaper healthcare? Personally, I'd rather my tax dollars not go to health care. I'd rather I get the choice to choose my own health care company, stick with that company, for a good affordable price. Especially, with being in the Military, once I'm out of my parents healthcare, I'm just going to go with Tricare (Military health care) anyway, because that's like the best healthcare out there. 

Some people might think different though, and would rather more money be taken out of there taxes, and them instantly given healthcare. That's just not me though.

Ya like jfk pointed outo there's just a whole flaw in your argument here. It took me all of 3 seconds reading this to start loling.

 

 

 

I think a great argument for single payer  is simply how popular it is in other countries. There has to be a reason only the US (a country with enormous political lobbying by the healthcare industry ) hasn't made the switch to public health care. The amount of Americans who have little to no access to health care would easily pay for it by helping to get them healthy and productive again. Cruz has stronger speaking skills because he trained for that in college while bernie is coming at it from the perspective of someone who grew up poor in America. I still got the impression while watching (haven't finished it yet) that Cruz was just at the end of the day arguing the government shouldn't really be involved in Healthcare and leaving people to sort things out themselves will be best.

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2 hours ago, Travesty said:

-snip-

These are comments I love to see, so thank you for that. 

Was Ted correct in regards to wait times for hospitals? Do you have to wait days/months on end to see your doctor for surgery that could've been provided faster if people weren't on a government healthcare system?

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3 hours ago, JFK said:

 

You claim to not want money being taken out of your taxes for healthcare, yet you plan on using a government managed single-payer healthcare plan that's funded by tax payers. A healthcare plan you even admit is the best healthcare out there for you.

 

What you plan on using is exactly what Bernie is proposing for the rest of the country.

 

39 minutes ago, Ordinarygamer96 said:

Ya like jfk pointed outo there's just a whole flaw in your argument here. It took me all of 3 seconds reading this to start loling.

 

 

 

I think a great argument for single payer  is simply how popular it is in other countries. There has to be a reason only the US (a country with enormous political lobbying by the healthcare industry ) hasn't made the switch to public health care. The amount of Americans who have little to no access to health care would easily pay for it by helping to get them healthy and productive again. Cruz has stronger speaking skills because he trained for that in college while bernie is coming at it from the perspective of someone who grew up poor in America. I still got the impression while watching (haven't finished it yet) that Cruz was just at the end of the day arguing the government shouldn't really be involved in Healthcare and leaving people to sort things out themselves will be best.

Except, to my knowledge, Tricare is government funded straight from the military. Your taxes aren't going straight to Tricare, it's going to support the military, and then they decide how much goes to Tricare, for military equipment, and etc. Your tax money is always going to go somewhere to support the government/military. 

The problem with Bernies solution is I don't see how America would plan to pay for every single American to have a healthcare program like Tricare. Taking most of the money from the rich wouldn't be enough to keep it going, as Cruz's point towards the end was.

 

Edit: I just overall like the idea of giving the American people more money, and letting them choose their own healthcare (by making healthcare more affordable), or not to choose. Whichever they want.

Edited by Ironic

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2 hours ago, Ironic said:

 

Except, to my knowledge, Tricare is government funded straight from the military. Your taxes aren't going straight to Tricare, it's going to support the military, and then they decide how much goes to Tricare, for military equipment, and etc. Your tax money is always going to go somewhere to support the government/military. 

The problem with Bernies solution is I don't see how America would plan to pay for every single American to have a healthcare program like Tricare. Taking most of the money from the rich wouldn't be enough to keep it going, as Cruz's point towards the end was.

 

Edit: I just overall like the idea of giving the American people more money, and letting them choose their own healthcare (by making healthcare more affordable), or not to choose. Whichever they want.

Americans already spend more per Capita  on healthcare than any other country. The elimination of private insurance and sending part of that cost towards taxes meant for single payer along with some small tax increases and regulation of overcharging by doctors which is a major cause of healthcare costs. Overall healthcare costs for most would go down and they wouldn't have to worry about insurance companies trying to fuck them. 

Edited by Ordinarygamer96

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30 minutes ago, Yunki said:

These are comments I love to see, so thank you for that. 

Was Ted correct in regards to wait times for hospitals? Do you have to wait days/months on end to see your doctor for surgery that could've been provided faster if people weren't on a government healthcare system?

 

To be honest, I'm not 100% sure because I've never really been to the hospital, thankfully. However reportedly wait times are longer in Canada than in the US for emergency treatment and specialist treatment. This is due to different, various factors: In the States, access is primarily determined by whether a person has access to funding to pay for treatment and by the availability of services in the area and by the willingness of the provider to deliver service at the price set by the insurer. In Canada, the wait time is set according to the availability of services in the area and by the relative need of the person needing treatment.

 

In a letter to the Wall Street Journal, Robert Bell, the President and CEO of University Health Network, Toronto, said that Michael Moore's film Sicko "exaggerated the performance of the Canadian health system — there is no doubt that too many patients still stay in our emergency departments waiting for admission to scarce hospital beds." However, "Canadians spend about 55% of what Americans spend on health care and have longer life expectancy and lower infant mortality rates. Many Americans have access to quality healthcare. All Canadians have access to similar care at a considerably lower cost." There is "no question" that the lower cost has come at the cost of "restriction of supply with sub-optimal access to services," said Bell. A new approach is targeting waiting times, which are reported on public websites.

 

Again this is not to say universal health care is the cause of long wait times. Denmark and Netherlands both have much shorter wait times than Canada. The United Kingdom (in particular England), Finland and the Netherlands have witnessed large reductions in waiting times in the last decade which can be attributed to a range of policy initiatives, including higher spending, waiting-times target schemes, and incentive mechanisms which reward higher levels of activity.

 

Wait times can be correlated to preventative measures that the government provides, which is something Canada struggles to do at the moment. One can argue the US and Canada aren't very good at preventing people from being overweight, etc. which if we want to spend less on healthcare, we should really be providing rewards for active transportation to keep our people healthy.

 

Also something to keep in mind is we were just under a conservative government for 10 years who didn't help our healthcare system that much (if at all).

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This reminds me of John Green saying why he pays taxes for education, for schools that his kids don't even go to

 

"I don't want to live in a country where stupid people exist"

 

Same logic here. Pay taxes to take care of your fellow Americans. I'm diabetic. My insulin pump alone costs $10k. I can't afford that out of pocket. 

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I'm a little late, but I laughed when I read someone saying Tricare is the best healthcare out there. It's only the best when you can get an exception for Tricare to cover going to a civilian hospital! Sure everything is free but man military doc's are trash. The military doesn't pay them enough to get the top MDs... I mean c12 is a military doc (not an MD)

Let's be real, ibuprofen and water are not an all-day cure like the military thinks.

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24 minutes ago, driz said:

I'm a little late, but I laughed when I read someone saying Tricare is the best healthcare out there. It's only the best when you can get an exception for Tricare to cover going to a civilian hospital! Sure everything is free but man military doc's are trash. The military doesn't pay them enough to get the top MDs... I mean c12 is a military doc (not an MD)

Oh yeah, I was referring to civilian hospitals, should have specified that. Since I'm in the National Guard, pretty much anytime I go to the doctor will be civilians. Our medical department is so small at my unit.

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38 minutes ago, Dr. NarwhalsNumbNuts IV said:

This reminds me of John Green saying why he pays taxes for education, for schools that his kids don't even go to

 

"I don't want to live in a country where stupid people exist"

 

Same logic here. Pay taxes to take care of your fellow Americans. I'm diabetic. My insulin pump alone costs $10k. I can't afford that out of pocket. 

I don't think thats a good way of thinking. You are assuming that 1) when the government does something it's beneficial and done properly and 2) without government intervention, there would be no X.

 

Using the same logic you could argue that the government should be in charge of almost everything. Obviously we want a perfect society, but just saying "give money to government" isn't a good solution, just look at the flaws of ACA.

 

"I don't want people going hungry, let's give money to the government to fix it."

"I want people to be able to raise a family off a minimum wage job, let the government fix it."

Etc etc

 

You are assuming the government can do it well and efficiently.

 

 

 

Edited by Yunki

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23 minutes ago, Yunki said:

I don't think thats a good way of thinking. You are assuming that 1) when the government does something it's beneficial and done properly and 2) without government intervention, there would be no X.

 

Using the same logic you could argue that the government should be in charge of almost everything. Obviously we want a perfect society, but just saying "give money to government" isn't a good solution, just look at the flaws of ACA.

 

"I don't want people going hungry, let's give money to the government to fix it."

"I want people to be able to raise a family off a minimum wage job, let the government fix it."

Etc etc

 

You are assuming the government can do it well and efficiently.

 

 

 

You can just as easily argue that you shouldn't trust someone looking to turn a profit to hold everyone's interest to heart. At least in the case of government the well being of citizens theoretically equals profit because votes 

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ACA had good intentions, but was a flawed program that "forced" Americans into it.

 

Because I know certain people in certain places that may or may not be Advisers/Directors that deal directly with President Trump personally, I know what their plan is on the replacement for ACA.  Let's just say, if it works out how they plan it, you will continue to get certain coverage if you cannot afford it.  Haven't really found out anything about pre-existing conditions (they haven't let that slip to me yet), but there is people on it and they are going to help you get healthcare coverage.

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the fact obama care to my knowledge is too cheap so doctors refuse it giving you no way to treat yourself with it.

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1 hour ago, slyfox said:

 

Because I know certain people in certain places that may or may not be Advisers/Directors that deal directly with President Trump personally, I know what their plan is on the replacement for ACA. 

 

Wow, you guys are worse off than I thought.

 

Not only do you have Donald Trump as President, Steve Bannon as his Advisor, Betsy DeVos running education but you also have Slyfox in political circles aiding politicians and their decisions!

 

You guys are fucked.  KappaRoss

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Travesty said:

 

Wow, you guys are worse off than I thought.

 

Not only do you have Donald Trump as President, Steve Bannon as his Advisor, Betsy DeVos running education but you also have Slyfox in political circles aiding politicians and their decisions!

 

You guys are fucked.  KappaRoss

 

 

 

It's a good thing he knows what the replacement is, because our politicians sure as fuck don't.  Good thing Trump reset expectations, so we shouldn't expect anything for a year.

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2 hours ago, slyfox said:

ACA had good intentions, but was a flawed program that "forced" Americans into it.

 

Because I know certain people in certain places that may or may not be Advisers/Directors that deal directly with President Trump personally, I know what their plan is on the replacement for ACA.  Let's just say, if it works out how they plan it, you will continue to get certain coverage if you cannot afford it.  Haven't really found out anything about pre-existing conditions (they haven't let that slip to me yet), but there is people on it and they are going to help you get healthcare coverage.

Because some random college kid knows the inner workings of the United States government. Trump hardly knows what the plan is at this point.

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3 minutes ago, Ordinarygamer96 said:

Because some random college kid knows the inner workings of the United States government. Trump hardly knows what the plan is at this point.

 

College?

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10 hours ago, Ordinarygamer96 said:

He's referred to having college classes before.  Was that a lie?

 

I'm 18 and a full time college student, ended an internship with Congress, and currently working towards being an assistant/intern to someone I have connections with who is a key adviser to the President.  The plan is pretty simple, and they have a few viable options, they are just investigating into the effects of each one (which one is the best for people with problems, which one is fairest to all taxpayers and puts more money into your pocket, etc).  I've met and chatted with key leaders of different departments in the Fed Gov, and may be working alongside them in the near future during college before I start flight school.  

Edited by slyfox

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2 hours ago, slyfox said:

I'm 18 and a full time college student, ended an internship with Congress, and currently working towards being an assistant/intern to someone I have connections with who is a key adviser to the President.  The plan is pretty simple, and they have a few viable options, they are just investigating into the effects of each one (which one is the best for people with problems, which one is fairest to all taxpayers and puts more money into your pocket, etc).  I've met and chatted with key leaders of different departments in the Fed Gov, and may be working alongside them in the near future during college before I start flight school.  

Gonna just say I highly doubt some 18 year old college freshman was given the details of a healthcare plan even the Republicans say hasn't been finished yet a year before it's expected reveal 

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1 hour ago, Ordinarygamer96 said:

Gonna just say I highly doubt some 18 year old college freshman was given the details of a healthcare plan even the Republicans say hasn't been finished yet a year before it's expected reveal 

Well.... I was.  I'm trying to phrase it correctly, they are past the rough ideas, they are fine tuning it, and it won't be much longer before they present the different options.  Then they will go into another process of "fine-tuning" them, and present them.  

 

I mean I do alot of stuff involving state/fed governments to build connections/build my resume: just yesterday I was in the state capitol lobbying with Republican State Senators and Legislators for continued state funding of public higher education institutions.  We were talking about tuition increases for certain colleges, and the Democrats had a 0% tuition increase but higher tax-payer funded, and the Republicans had a 2% tuition increase with the same amount of State assisted funds as of now.  The GOP guys are looking into ways to cut the costs of the colleges (hidden stashes of cash, sports teams now increasing their budget even though they suck, etc) while the Dems want more money in total, but don't want to raise tuition and instead want more state-assisted funding.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but back to the main topic. 

 

The GOP has different methods, and they are working on it, even though the media is showing all this jeff sessions steve bannnon travel ban stuff.  

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2 hours ago, slyfox said:

Well.... I was.  I'm trying to phrase it correctly, they are past the rough ideas, they are fine tuning it, and it won't be much longer before they present the different options.  Then they will go into another process of "fine-tuning" them, and present them.  

 

I mean I do alot of stuff involving state/fed governments to build connections/build my resume: just yesterday I was in the state capitol lobbying with Republican State Senators and Legislators for continued state funding of public higher education institutions.  We were talking about tuition increases for certain colleges, and the Democrats had a 0% tuition increase but higher tax-payer funded, and the Republicans had a 2% tuition increase with the same amount of State assisted funds as of now.  The GOP guys are looking into ways to cut the costs of the colleges (hidden stashes of cash, sports teams now increasing their budget even though they suck, etc) while the Dems want more money in total, but don't want to raise tuition and instead want more state-assisted funding.  It will be interesting to see how it plays out, but back to the main topic. 

 

The GOP has different methods, and they are working on it, even though the media is showing all this jeff sessions steve bannnon travel ban stuff.  

In the old days government funding for higher education was much higher and that's why it was cheaper. The dems just want to return to what it used to be which makes sense rather than increasing already high tuition costs.

 

Trump himself said the plan isn't near finalized and everything you said is general stuff they've already said to the media. Not denying  you do internships just that I highly doubt any Republican leaders would tell a random 18 year old their plans when they all seem to barely have a clue and won't commit to anything 

Edited by Ordinarygamer96

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